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SPAWN FRAGGING...

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Level 14 Human gamer
Alignment: True neutral
Posted on February 26, 2008 at 6:38 pm

**chats outloud

It's getting absurd the way people are complaining about being fragged when they just spawned.. most of the time they just don't like to lose.

Most games, when you spawn you are supposed to take it like a big boy (or girl)... hence, that's why you play... for the action... if you can't recall what the game is about, is to battle...

...You should be able to spawn frag whenever; if you rather leave your opponent untouch so he and you can wonder around and waste time then that's up to you... When you wait and another ai spawns then it becomes unstable, or if you reunite later on after spending 1 minute looking for another red dot... :roll:
I normally wait on people because it seems unfair to frag someone so deliberately, but when someone spawn frags me, I don't whine or cry about it... (i try to battle or just take me out for a better weapon

It is never consistent... each player have their own rules on how much to wait and what not... some spawn frag only if it's far away, others only if there are many battling, others only if it's more 5 seconds have passed, others don't care at all (players get mixed with this and just get negative responses for whatever)...

All I've seen are arguments of who shot first, how little time I had and of course the infamous I just spawned ... when he already took out an ai that just spawned.... Spawn fragging should be allowed always. Keep it consistent, keep it mature.... (if you want to wait for people is kind of you, but shouldn't be mandatory!). If you get taken out when just spawned then reload and try again.

*searching for 666's posts of ethics mentioned by VTB, if someone has it please post it!...*

Level 11 Human gamer
Alignment: Good
Posted on February 26, 2008 at 8:28 pm

Ignore the players and Play you game

Level 14 Human gamer
Alignment: True neutral
Posted on February 27, 2008 at 9:02 pm

Yeah, it is not all the time but when it happens, it sours the moment...
I guess I'm playing less time; so, trying to enjoy more time in the field than out... (unless i'm chatting)

Level 11 Human gamer
Alignment: Good
Posted on February 27, 2008 at 9:48 pm

or Clear what yes is Better what play and Ignore the players

Level 12 Human Tinker
Alignment: Good
Location: USA
Posted on February 28, 2008 at 7:18 pm

My two pfennigs on the topic:

I used to care about spawn fragging, but not in recent months. It is, as Pablo mentions, futile to maintain gentlemens' rules for spawn fragging when half the participants are not agreeing to those rules. So I just do whatever now. Unless the game were re-coded to allow spawning tanks to be immune for a few seconds after spawning... spawn fragging might as well be the norm rather than the exception.

Level 13 Human gamer
Alignment: True neutral
Posted on February 28, 2008 at 10:04 pm

it's just annoying when you spawn and the person open fires on you with something like the flamer...deliberately to kill you

Level 14 Human Shadow
Alignment: Chaotic good
Location: Earth Orbit, Preparing to Attack
Posted on February 28, 2008 at 10:27 pm

I think spawn fragging at the point where the person hasn't even landed is poor sportsmanship. I also think that spawn fragging in general isn't good sportsmanship.

On the other hand, if someone tries to spawn frag me, I have no issue with spawnfragging them back, nor with defending myself. As most of the people that spawnfrag are newbies and not good fighters, having just spawned I regularly beat the person trying to spawnfrag me, or run away fast enough to grab a weapon then return.

The times when spawnfragging is perfectly valid are:

1. Someone spawns into an ongoing battle.
2. Someone spawns on the cruise/nuke/shadow you were about to pick up.
3. They are spawnfraggers themselves.
4. They are reverse-spawnfraggers (shoot tanks on spawn that let them live) themselves.

The times when reverse-spawnfragging is perfectly valid are:

1. Someone spawns into an ongoing battle, they expect to be shot at and can take shots to defend themselves.
2. Someone spawns on a nuke or other superweapon.
3. They spawn next to a spawnfragger.
4. They spawn next to someone that has reverse-spawnfragged them.

The general rules I follow with other players that don't spawnfrag:

1. I'll let them at least get a weapon and show that they are ready. Usually I fire a warning shot or loop back around. As long as I rent out of direct fire for a moment, I consider it fair.
2. If I know they always go after another tank then me (or give huge lead time) I'll head after another red dot.
3. If I know that they start fighting quickly. I'll give them the chance to get the weapon, then all bets are off.
4. If they fire at anyone (human), I'm in the battle!
5. If there is an AI molesting the tank that just spawned, I'll help them kill that tank. Then all bets are off.


I think the reactions to spawnfragging is overrated. If you're spawnfragged by someone that isn't a newbie, spawnfrag them back. If you're spawnfragged by a newbie, then let them know that it isn't nice and is poor sportsmanship. If they continue, spawnfrag them back.

--

The one nasty exception I take is when someone tries to impersonate another player/clan and trash them, such as by spawnfragging. Then I go find a shadow, superammo it as many times as I can, and target only that one tank for the remainder of the game. I'll ignore all other tanks, unless they get to aggressive toward me. Let the impersonator have fun then :)

Level 14 Human Sr Code Monkey
Alignment: Chaotic
Location: lost in the evil lands, of soccer-mom piloted minivans....
Posted on February 28, 2008 at 10:59 pm

*begin soapbox mode*

its just dumb luck to spawn in a bad place, but the game tends to keep spawning you in the same spot at times. I think the game tries to put you near someone. sometimes.

but look, what about getting nailed by a tracked weapon when you spawn? I remember putting a tone of mods on my server once to play with them, and I had a dozen missiles in the air. The other player, whom I don't remember, got po'd and blasted me with nasty remarks because I was spawn fragging .

Two things:
1) Its a game, which goal is to annihilate the opponents to rack up a score
2) The game does not prevent a new spawn from getting nailed before it touches the ground, or within the few seconds it takes to acknowledge a weapon pickup, and tank control.

The only thing I believe is the only reasonable gentleman play, is not to camp (not easy to achieve) or got out of your way to spawn frag (ie spawn hunting ). Anything beyond that is difficult at best, unless you start barring people from servers. I don't see how spawn fragging can be avoidable when you get more than a few players on a map. You'll spend more time avoiding spawns than playing during spawn waves .

I think there even was a attempt, when a spawn appears in a fire fight, that all players near it would cease fire and wait for it to move away before commencing. That is a real gentleman play, but it lasted about 5 mins until more players appeared that have no idea about such rules and play like normal. Then they got barraged with complaints. What happened? most of the players left out of frustration from both groups.

Unless the game itself has mechanisms to prevent spawn fragging, you can't expect to police every player, or put them through an orientation, or expect them to read forums (As if it were required to do so when you buy the game. I don't remember there being such a requirement in the Lisc. Agreement on the package.)

A game community is a group of people who love playing a game. It is not an organizational body which governs it, and it should never pretend to be.
It cannot authorize servers, players, player behavior, etc, beyond community organized events, such as the ddm, which awards ladder standings. In order for it to be a fair competition rules have to be obeyed. But day to day play, I think imposing such policies is futile and detrimental. I would't want to play a game when every thing is mirco-managed (which is why I donot play the newer battlefield installments) especially if by people who are not affiliated directly with the Intellectual Property holder.

I'm very talkative tonight. LOL

In any case, I'm not saying that we all should run around ans spawn frag (remember, actively seeking out spawn frags and camping are the only truly unsportsmanlike thing to do). But when it does happen, you should not go on a rampage to crucify the individual that did so. Thats a very childish thing to do, and you end up looking like a complainer/whiner. If it becomes a problem on the server (i.e. the fragger is actively seeking out spawn frags, meaning charging at you from a distance when you drop in) , You can try to mention something to the other player in a non-offensive way (don't say stop spawn fragging jerk ESPECIALLY when it only happened once). But don't be surprised if you get back talk or be ignored. you then have two options:

1) boot the offender off the server
2) Leave

If you stay, then you have to deal with it.

*end soapbox mode*

Level 15 Human Jack-of-all-trades
Alignment: Chaotic good
Location: The Void
Posted on February 29, 2008 at 11:39 pm

Since I'm one of Pab's whiners; based on the recent childishness out of the Mario brothers and some of newer players who have never taken the hint. I'll stick to paying veterans respect but I've had enough of the rest of the third generation players.

Level 14 Human Sr Code Monkey
Alignment: Chaotic
Location: lost in the evil lands, of soccer-mom piloted minivans....
Posted on March 1, 2008 at 10:27 am

Maybe, if LDA releases the source to TM, I ca do something about it :twisted:

Level 11 Human gamer
Alignment: Good
Posted on March 1, 2008 at 12:21 pm

poor VTB

Level 14 Human gamer
Alignment: True neutral
Posted on March 1, 2008 at 9:01 pm

I wonder what was the original take upon spawn fragging...

I respect what everyone shared and I agree with it... There could be sportsmanship in any game that their rules are being enforced. In this case, no rule can be enforced, whether is spawn fragging, using other people's identities, cussing and what have you... hence, anarchy seems to be more efficient then a few ticked-off vigilantes.

...we also have the case of people that take spawn fragging as an excuse to vent-off since their feelings got hurt because they just got fragged :roll:

If spawn fragging is normal, then you won't get so many pitiful fights.... You can always show class and go away, wait for people and what have you.... but if you get spawn fragged: reload and try again! (is that simple)

Switching channels:
Killer,
We have talked about games that maintain track of you , battlefield in this case... I kind of mind not being able to play without having to log-in but I guess they do that to keep track of your rank and stats (which I really like).... In any case my so precious information about myself is:
name: Jim Morrison
Address: 2007 Love Street, Venice CA
DOB: 06/06/76

What stops you from entering altered information?!

Level 15 Human gamer
Alignment: True neutral
Posted on March 2, 2008 at 3:54 am

The spawn fragging issue is the essence of humanity.

Do you or don't you take advantage of the situation.

The cool part of having a choice is that you get to make the choice. That is what separates the humans from the AI's. We can choose. The AI's just do.

I have tried to always be fair in all aspects of my life. Gaming should not be any different. I always thank the person for not spawn fragging me.

The only rule to join the GA clan is to not spawn frag . Though, I have told the GA clan that if you are spawn fragged by a certain person in a clan battle, you can spawn frag them back.

This debate will continue forever.

so...play hard, play fair, and see you online.

Level 14 Human Sr Code Monkey
Alignment: Chaotic
Location: lost in the evil lands, of soccer-mom piloted minivans....
Posted on March 2, 2008 at 12:19 pm

I don't mean to hijack this thread but:


Switching channels:
Killer,
We have talked about games that maintain track of you , battlefield in this case... I kind of mind not being able to play without having to log-in but I guess they do that to keep track of your rank and stats (which I really like)....
What stops you from entering altered information?!


NOthing. :)


My issues though with it is this:
1) You buy a game, but cannot play all of it, unless you play online. Most of the functionality can only be made accessible through online play. MMORP are like this. But BF is NOT an MMORPG, nor did I purchase it as one. (an FPS as a MMORPG? you've GOT to be kidding). BF2 was never marketed as a purely online game, you only found that out once you bought it and read the manual. Now I know so I'm no longer buying the new entries in the franchise.

2) A user name, password, and a cd key is more than enough information to allow online play for such a game. But they ask for DOB, address, phone number, email address, name, etc and never disclose WHY they need it. They just mention we won't give it to anyone . Also, you have to use this REGARDLESS of whether your playing on an official server or not. I can't set up my own server and play on it without having to register to e able to play online. AAFIK, Non-registered servers donot count towards your ranking, so why am I forced to register and log in with all that information? Also, features opened through online play are unavailable on a non-registered server. Go figure......

3) Online stats are fine, but what if I just want to ply a game without it affecting my ranking? Can't do it in this case, unless I play without the weapons and goodies and maps etc that are available when I play online. In other words, you have no way to practice except for playing on a registered server. Given that Kiddies are on the minute they get home from school and play though till bed time, and then on weekends, adults like me who can only play for a couple of hours a week will never advance (so you never open up that additional features that you payed for).

Anyway.. back to the regularly scheduled thread. :)

Level 14 Human gamer
Alignment: True neutral
Posted on March 2, 2008 at 5:34 pm


...The spawn fragging issue is the essence of humanity....
...The cool part of having a choice is that you get to make the choice. That is what separates the humans from the AI's....
...I have tried to always be fair in all aspects of my life. Gaming should not be any different. I always thank the person for not spawn fragging me.
...The only rule to join the GA clan is to not spawn frag ....


Wow, I never knew this topic could get so deep :) Imagine explaining what you and other players typed to a new player that just spawn fragged you! LOL. Reload & try again :twisted:
(In any case the ones that have been playing (like RC says) have the advantage of someone trying to spawn frag you).

...everything he said true... but why hosting a server if you are not going to play it? and why caring about stats if you won't play much... regardless; by normal rules, if you were able to play 2 hours a week on a local machine, will take many years to get to other ranks... and would seem kind of unfair to let anyone unlock the weapons that are so hard to obtain.
You could use your altered info to make an official ranked server... so I guess the first disputable question remains the neutralizer of the problem :)
If you ever want to try the hidden stuff, I'll give you my user name and password :twisted: although, I'm stuck in between ranks and still not sure what to do :(

Level 13 Human gamer
Alignment: True neutral
Posted on March 5, 2008 at 8:42 pm

When you play a game with....veterans....and there is courtesy and no deliberate spawn fragging (or reverse), I personally find it much more enjoyable.

It is very easy for someone to sit at a spawn point and kill people before they have a chance to move and it makes for a boring game. The fun of the game is the intelligent strategies and skill of the good players. Killing someone that can not defend themselves is the opposite of that fun.

Level 14 Human gamer
Alignment: True neutral
Posted on March 5, 2008 at 10:09 pm

John B as I live and breathe---long time no hear--How's it going?/ Whatcha been up to all these years(?)
Nice to see another name out of the past show up on occasion.
:)

Level 14 Human gamer
Alignment: True neutral
Posted on March 6, 2008 at 7:26 pm

Hi JB & Teulk!

I agree JB, it is too easy to spawn frag someone landing with the proper weapon...
... and someone waiting on a spawn poing definetely does not know the concept of strategy...

At the same time, veterans should be able to let go when someone spawn frags you... just because.
I'm not saying that we should all wait for people to land and spawn frag... that would be boring... although I'm always up for any challenge ;)

What I am saying is not to take it so seriously to the point that you forget about playing the game and rather cry about it and ruin it for everyone else....