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Tread Marks and Vista?

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Level 14 Human Shadow
Alignment: Chaotic good
Location: Earth Orbit, Preparing to Attack
Posted on February 7, 2007 at 11:46 pm

Looks like, based on this discussion, TM will not work under Vista. Not that I was planning to get Vista (YUCK!) anyway.

Anyone confirm?

http://www.lwg3d.org/forums/showthread.php?t=31398

Unreal Tournament 2004 and the professional graphics benchmarking suite SPECviewperf 9.03 suffered heavily from the lack of support for the OpenGL graphics library under Windows Vista.

Tread Marks uses OpenGL.

Level 13 Human Unaffiliated Game Maker
Alignment: Chaotic
Location: England
Posted on February 8, 2007 at 11:45 am

Seriously, bill gates and the people at microsoft may be clever but they're utter MORONS.

LOADS of stuff uses open GL, and enough people despised them for windows XP, and those same people plus more despise vista already!

I was definately not planning to get Vista and this kindof seals it. Lack of open GL support aside, there are other issues such as the price, and many annoying features, such as deleting downloaded music and reporting you for it o_O, I mean come on, they gave us MSN, which is probably the way most music is transferred from person to person... Stupid people...

Level 14 Extraplanar Programmer
Alignment: Chaotic good
Location: Toronto
Posted on February 8, 2007 at 12:42 pm

I had run Tread Marks under one of the beta versions of Tread Marks some months back, and it seemed to work fine. We don't have a full version of Vista at the office yet (it's in the mail) so we can't test it for certain.

I've read some stuff on OpenGL on Vista, and these are the options as I currently understand it:
* Run the game with Microsoft's OpenGL implementation, which is frozen at version 1.4. This should be fine for Tread Marks, but may pose a serious annoyance to new games written in OpenGL.
* Install a legacy driver for your video card. This means install one of the drivers your graphics card vendor is releasing for XP. However, when you use OpenGL with these drivers, it will disable the Aero desktop manager. Of course, most people play games in full-screen mode, so if this is accurate, it shouldn't be a big problem (however, it means we still have the problem of games not working at all unless you install a driver). This, however, is a huge kick in the pants for graphics artists using tools that use OpenGL.
* Despite Microsoft's initial claims that an OpenGL driver that plays nice with Aero are impossible (which reminds me very much of Sony's claims that motion sensors and force feedback in teh same controller is inconceivable), NVidia and ATI plan on releasing such drivers anyway. I don't think they've released them yet, though.
I still don't see any compelling reason to switch to Vista, though. We're only getting a copy for testing purposes here.

John Carmack has a nice soundbite on the topic.
It's a tough thing for Microsoft, where, essentially, Windows XP was a just fine operating system. Before that, there were horrible problems with Windows. But once they got there, it did everything an operating system is supposed to do. Nothing is going to help a new game by going to a new operating system. There were some clear wins going from Windows 95 to Windows XP for games, but there really aren't any for Vista. They're artificially doing that by tying DX10 so close it, which is really nothing about the OS. It's a hardware-interface spec. It's an artificial thing that they're doing there. They're really grasping at straws for reasons to upgrade the operating system. I suspect I could run XP for a great many more years without having a problem with it.
The most annoying thing about Vista, in my opinion, is the DRM. Unsigned drivers won't work on the 64 bit version of Vista (which, for me, means no temperature monitors for my hardware, no Daemon Tools, and a couple other things I rely on), and high-def content won't work on the 32 bit version.

Level 14 Human wizard
Alignment: Good
Posted on February 8, 2007 at 3:49 pm

... The most annoying thing about Vista, in my opinion, is the DRM...
Agreed. And Trojan Horses as the [url=htto://badvista.fsf.org]FSF</a> says.

Level 14 Human Shadow
Alignment: Chaotic good
Location: Earth Orbit, Preparing to Attack
Posted on February 8, 2007 at 5:35 pm

Actually, I find the most annoying issue of Vista the disabling of multi-monitor setup on the Home editions. That simply makes no sense, and because of how they package their software, to get the development tools I need and the video playback and gaming extensions I want, I'd have to get Ultimate. An utter waste of money. If I'm going to pay $400 for an OS, I might as well pay more for hardware and get a Mac Pro (with after market upgrades) that has a $90 OS that natively will run Apache server, FTP, and any other development tools I want due to it's BSD backend.

Level 14 Extraplanar Programmer
Alignment: Chaotic good
Location: Toronto
Posted on February 8, 2007 at 6:24 pm

Is that true? Is that for both Home versions, or only Home Basic? I know Home Basic doesn't support their fancy Aero desktop manager (in other words, The Wow starts when you give us twice the money ).

Level 14 Human Sr Code Monkey
Alignment: Chaotic
Location: lost in the evil lands, of soccer-mom piloted minivans....
Posted on February 8, 2007 at 7:40 pm

that wouldn't surprise me if M$ did do just that.

Incedentally, I wonder if the intel-based mac os can be installed on any intel box.

After all, VMWare runs on Mac and Linux. If you really need to boot windows, may as well make it a vmware image. May as well just use Linux and run win xp in vmware.

Level 14 Human Shadow
Alignment: Chaotic good
Location: Earth Orbit, Preparing to Attack
Posted on February 8, 2007 at 8:50 pm

Killer, can't use VMWare except with Vista Ultimate, per the Vista license:

[code:1:7f52ce6800]4. USE WITH VIRTUALIZATION TECHNOLOGIES. You may not use the software installed on the
licensed device within a virtual &#40;or otherwise emulated&#41; hardware system.[/code:1:7f52ce6800]

As for the multimonitor issue, it appears to be a legacy / cross vender issue mainly. As I read more on it, older cards will not be supported for multi monitor (you'll have to upgrade to cards with identical WDDM compliant drivers).

Details here: http://www.intelliadmin.com/blog/2006/12/vista-limitation-multi-monitor.html

Here is the catch. If you have two different video cards that have different WDDM Drivers - one will be disabled. In other words you must have two video cards from the same manufacturer. And of course, the same driver even if it is from the same company.

Level 14 Human Shadow
Alignment: Chaotic good
Location: Earth Orbit, Preparing to Attack
Posted on February 8, 2007 at 8:52 pm

Also, Killer, take a look at Parallels on the Mac. The new beta version they are working on is incredible :)

http://forums.parallels.com/thread8354.html

Level 14 Human Sr Code Monkey
Alignment: Chaotic
Location: lost in the evil lands, of soccer-mom piloted minivans....
Posted on February 8, 2007 at 9:03 pm

I wasn't talking about puting Vista on VMWare. Put XP on VMWare and run linux or Mac OS. ;)

Vista is useless.

Level 14 Human Shadow
Alignment: Chaotic good
Location: Earth Orbit, Preparing to Attack
Posted on February 8, 2007 at 10:04 pm

Of course, I assume you heard that EAX doesn't work with Vista. Either you lose your surround sound, or you wait a year or so before Creative gets new vista compliant drivers out. Even then, half the games that use EAX will still fail because many games use direct hardware calls for EAX...which Vista doesn't allow.

Level 13 Human gamer
Alignment: True neutral
Posted on February 8, 2007 at 10:46 pm

I know this is way off topic but rick christmas is long past you can take the christmas hat off your avatar now :p

Level 13 Human Unaffiliated Game Maker
Alignment: Chaotic
Location: England
Posted on February 9, 2007 at 11:10 am

If you ask me, the only reason there is a new operating system is because Microsoft want more money *shrugs*

But, I did hear that they were saying they would cease allowing games to be designed for XP or lower after a while. Wether this is true, or wether they can even legaly do that is another thing, but they are seriously screwing up peoples nice, peaceful computer-life here...

And force feedback in motion controllers? Maybe they should have used their brains before considering that? Unless they wanted a game were the character gets electrocuted whenever he hits something o_O?

Level 14 Extraplanar Programmer
Alignment: Chaotic good
Location: Toronto
Posted on February 9, 2007 at 3:20 pm

Here is the catch. If you have two different video cards that have different WDDM Drivers - one will be disabled. In other words you must have two video cards from the same manufacturer. And of course, the same driver even if it is from the same company.
Okay, that's not so bad.
I know this is way off topic but rick christmas is long past you can take the christmas hat off your avatar now :p
Oh, fine. Next you'll be telling me I should take down the Christmas cards in my apartment!

Level 14 Human Shadow
Alignment: Chaotic good
Location: Earth Orbit, Preparing to Attack
Posted on February 9, 2007 at 5:22 pm

Yeah, Rick:

The dual monitor thing apparently MS backpeddled on before the official release after much uproar :)

Level 15 Human Jack-of-all-trades
Alignment: Chaotic good
Location: The Void
Posted on March 3, 2007 at 9:19 pm

Hi,
I'm a systems consultant and with the exception of rich wonks, no business I know of going to Vista any time soon. On the other hand...
So CompUSA is going out of business in Los Angeles, County among other places so, I decided to drop by and see if I could pick up anything reasonably priced.
I bought a Compaq C502US laptop with Windows Vista Basic (my guess since I haven't bothered to figure out all of the versions is that this is the crippleware version). It only had 512MB of RAM so I bought another 1GB of RAM, about 512MB less than the minimum recommended.
First impressions:
It is slow. 40 minutes for the system to load the first time is ridiculous.
It is slow. It shouldn't have taken me 10 minutes of trying to figure which wizard to run to try and connect to my wireless network. In fact, I shouldn't need a wizard to set up the network, I should be able to modify the settings and connect without a wizard.
It is slow. It shouldn't take the system another ten minutes to decide once it is connected to the network whether it is connected to the network.
It is slow. I shouldn't have to run a search button to open a command line window.
My wife is going to be mad at me because I bought in part to provide her with a laptop to take a class in making mobile toys which requires a circuit board creation program. The other reason is that I will have support it. I have a Vista Premium goo gaa license to replace the OEM license but I'm hesitant to add it since the Basic is, as previously mentioned, SLOW.
(list not working)
Other items: I had planned on pulling the stock drive and putting in another drive to install Windows XP (preserving the OEM drive for later use). The laptop is SATA and the drive I bought is IDE. DOH!!!

Did I mention that it is slow?

Level 14 Human Shadow
Alignment: Chaotic good
Location: Earth Orbit, Preparing to Attack
Posted on March 3, 2007 at 11:30 pm

I see it has a celery chip. Not surprising it is slow :)

But yeah, everything I've heard is that it's slow.

Level 13 Human gamer
Alignment: True neutral
Posted on March 4, 2007 at 11:32 am



But, I did hear that they were saying they would cease allowing games to be designed for XP or lower after a while. Wether this is true, or wether they can even legaly do that is another thing, but they are seriously screwing up peoples nice, peaceful computer-life here...


Thats partly true let me give you some specs.

Halo 2 is going to be vista only along with any Direct X 10 games from what i know.

As for the EAX thing i read that Creative are working on a program that will sort that for creative sound cards, i will keep an eye out.

Level 15 Human Jack-of-all-trades
Alignment: Chaotic good
Location: The Void
Posted on March 5, 2007 at 11:11 am

After a lot of deglossing, I have a slow but workable system; after installing the basics (VMWare Player, a virtual WindowsXP guest OS and a virtual Ubuntu 6.06 guest OS), I moved on to the meat of this project.
-
After arguing with the OS for ten minutes that the CD was not blank and did not need to be formatted for use, I installed TreadMarks.
-
It worked; the OpenGL drive was provided by the built-in Intel Graphics Media Accelrator Drive for mobile.
-
So, while I wouldn't recommend anyone buy Vista and or bother running it on a stock HP/Compaq Presario C501US laptop without at least adding another gigabyte of RAM. I can say that it does run on this specific piece of hardware with Windows Vista Basic.
-
After I play with this a little more, I will be updating my Woudn't it make sense to you? rant at my forum

Level 13 Human Unaffiliated Game Maker
Alignment: Chaotic
Location: England
Posted on March 5, 2007 at 12:15 pm

Stupid Miscrosoft, once again they have destroyed the happy gaming future of our lives.

You know my freind tells me that if you so much as save a picture from the internet it deletes it =O

If games start switching to Vista screw it I'll try and get Linux XD Either that or Ill just have to have a removable HD for those games...

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