|
Author Topic:   Has LDA ever commented on the lag issue directly?
Irascible
Member
posted September 27, 2004 01:58 AM            
Yeah. Three threads in one night is huge for me. 666 must have infected me with something.

The thing is, I'm an eternal skeptic.
-666 thinks maps do it. I don't believe him and have seen no solid proof of anything except that it makes him happy.
-Someone else says setting the netrate down helps. I also don't believe that for the simple reason that I ran a server with the default netrate that had ZERO problems up to six players on a cable modem - and 85 had tons of action.
-Someone says reducing terrain deformation will reduce lag. Maybe. But I tried a server once with zero terrain deformation and you STILL had to update those non-existent craters when logging on.
-85 was tried on LDA's server a couple times and my cable modem handled it better. Clearly there's something goofy going on there that is not understood.

Based on what I said, I hope you'll see that my skepticism about ALL of the suggested solutions is not totally unfounded.

Has LDA not ever weighed in on it? I'm inclined to believe it if it comes straight from the man. Have they ever posted in a thread that we could pull up? I've seen lots of commentary over the years but don't recall seeing it from them directly. Could we not get a list of things to do from then and implement that list dogmatically? I'd love to know their opinion on netrate, view distance, clan maps, etc. I know we love to debate any and all suggestions. But I bet you’d get little debate about suggestions they make.

IP:

VorDesigns
Member
posted September 27, 2004 02:04 AM            
It isn't necessarily the server; all it takes is one bad router that say 70% of the traffic goes through pitching traffic in the wrong directions every tenth packet or so.

I constantly have to file complaints with EarthLink to call Level3.net because people north of me can't get to our corporate servers, but our VPN connection to the Middle East never drops a stitch, of course, it never uses level3 routers to get there either.

IP:

coaxs
Member
posted September 27, 2004 02:11 AM            
There is also the craters and scorching from the tank threads which can't be eliminated.

------------------
Tread Marks Ladders

IP:

KiLlEr
Member
posted September 27, 2004 02:22 AM            
Well, It AIN'T LogScan. :P

LOL

Seriously, someone needs to check the server's dedicated.log file to see if there are any errors.

2 big time lag causing errors are Hashing errors, which means the server needs to be rebooted, and people joining with bad flags.

Then the next step would be to run nettraces against LDA to see if there may be a bad router. Several people would need to do this to see how far and how bad the path to their LDA server is. It could be laggy for some beacuse of long hops to the LDA server. If you have more than 10-15 hops, you will get lag since there's alot of packet traffic at that point. (i.e. the more roads the packet has to take to get to and from the LDA server and your machine, the more chances it gets into a traffic jam.)

[This message has been edited by KiLlEr (edited September 27, 2004).]

IP:

Irascible
Member
posted September 27, 2004 03:50 AM            
I'm sure that's true Vor. I'm just curious if LDA has ever commented on optimizations that we can do.

I'm sure that's true Coaxs. I'm just curious if LDA has ever commented on optimizations that we can do.

I'm sure that's true Killer. I'm just curious if LDA has ever commented on optimizations that we can do.

IP:

Rex R
Member
posted September 27, 2004 03:55 AM            
from madison wi
Tracing route to 38.112.120.109 over a maximum of 30 hops

0 your-fulkl1oh2q [12.73.146.56]

1 199.69.204.9

2 199.69.204.1

3 12.122.252.45

4 gbr1-p21.cgcil.ip.att.net [12.123.193.50]

5 tbr1-p013502.cgcil.ip.att.net [12.122.11.33]

6 ggr1-p360.chail.ip.att.net [12.123.216.137]

7 p2-1.core01.ord03.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54.11.89]

8 p12-0.core02.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54.2.241]

9 p5-0.core01.yyz01.atlas.cogentco.com [66.28.4.214]

10 g0-1.na01.b010963-0.yyz01.atlas.cogentco.com [38.112.34.102]

11 38.112.120.109

Computing statistics for 275 seconds...

Source to Here This Node/Link

Hop RTT Lost/Sent = Pct Lost/Sent = Pct Address

0 your-fulkl1oh2q [12.73.146.56]

0/ 100 = 0% |

1 --- 100/ 100 =100% 100/ 100 =100% 199.69.204.9

0/ 100 = 0% |

2 --- 100/ 100 =100% 100/ 100 =100% 199.69.204.1

0/ 100 = 0% |

3 --- 100/ 100 =100% 100/ 100 =100% 12.122.252.45

0/ 100 = 0% |

4 --- 100/ 100 =100% 100/ 100 =100% gbr1-p21.cgcil.ip.att.net [12.123.193.50]

0/ 100 = 0% |

5 --- 100/ 100 =100% 100/ 100 =100% tbr1-p013502.cgcil.ip.att.net [12.122.11.33]

0/ 100 = 0% |

6 --- 100/ 100 =100% 100/ 100 =100% ggr1-p360.chail.ip.att.net [12.123.216.137]

0/ 100 = 0% |

7 120ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% p2-1.core01.ord03.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54.11.89]

0/ 100 = 0% |

8 128ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% p12-0.core02.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54.2.241]

0/ 100 = 0% |

9 142ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% p5-0.core01.yyz01.atlas.cogentco.com [66.28.4.214]

0/ 100 = 0% |

10 137ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% g0-1.na01.b010963-0.yyz01.atlas.cogentco.com [38.112.34.102]

2/ 100 = 2% |

11 130ms 2/ 100 = 2% 0/ 100 = 0% 38.112.120.109

Trace complete.

what it means I have no idea.

IP:

=DNX= Matrix
Member
posted September 27, 2004 07:08 AM            
Ok, think about this, what causes lag, what kind of lag, when does it happen.

First and foremost is terrain deformation, when you join a game it can take a good while to update youre system with the deformations, if theres no deformations theres no data to send and entry to the game server is quick, so last ditch efforts should be in using zero deformation weapons.

Player numbers can cause lag, so i suggest players change netrate, 3 for 56k, 2 for DSL users.

Video lag, change youre view to 500m from 1000, and you force the system to call for 50% less update information.

Map lag, use quarter size maps, thats a saving of 75% on any landscape update data.

Run in 16 bit not 32, drop your texture quality a little, turn smoke to 25% and maybe drop your res to 800x600. Its a known fact that the best quake players play with no detaiuls on as the game moves a lot faster; to this end (once it done) play with the cel-shade mod, it removes all detailing in textures.

And lest we forget it : turn of ALL Email,Im applications or ANYTHING else thatrequires net access/updates, this WILL add to lag - as would voice comms software.

IP:

VorDesigns
Member
posted September 27, 2004 10:42 AM            
Tracing route to 38.112.120.109 over a maximum of 30 hops

1 1 ms 1 ms 1 ms 10.11.9.3
2 46 ms 47 ms 45 ms netblock-66-159-241-1.dslextreme.com [66.159.241.1]
3 46 ms 46 ms 45 ms g11-0-20.gsr.cr1.lax1.dslextreme.com [66.51.203.1]
4 61 ms 61 ms 62 ms p4-0.cr1.sjc1.extremetele.com [66.218.44.33]
5 61 ms 62 ms 62 ms g4-0-106.core01.sjc03.atlas.cogentco.com [66.218.44.78]
6 61 ms 64 ms 63 ms p6-3.core01.sjc01.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54.2.233]
7 64 ms 63 ms 64 ms p4-0.core01.sfo01.atlas.cogentco.com [66.28.4.93]
8 109 ms 112 ms 109 ms p14-0.core01.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com [66.28.4.186] <-- Starts to slow down, but not a lot
9 109 ms 109 ms 111 ms p15-0.core02.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com [66.28.4.62]
10 123 ms 123 ms 123 ms p5-0.core01.yyz01.atlas.cogentco.com [66.28.4.214]
11 123 ms 123 ms 123 ms g0-1.na01.b010963-0.yyz01.atlas.cogentco.com [38.112.34.102]
12 125 ms 123 ms 126 ms 38.112.120.109

Trace complete.

Usually once it goes over 150 ms something is wrong.

IP:

pablito
Member
posted September 27, 2004 10:55 AM            
Vor: Do you have any proxy server capabilities?
I rarely got any lag on your server.. but then again the route is way better... I'm only lucky to be next to Canada, that's probably why I have a good connection...
Couldn't you use your server as a proxy server for others to ease the amount of hops?

[This message has been edited by pablito (edited September 27, 2004).]

IP:

=DNX= Matrix
Member
posted September 27, 2004 11:20 AM            
Spam is responsible for 75% of the net's slowdown, it jams up hop servers and clogs up inboxes. Youll never completely get rid of lag, but theres a lot you can do to minimise its effects. Getting a ping of over 150 means nothing since every route you take across the net doesnt always go through the same hop servers, and each server is not guarenteed to be busy or free when your signal hits it.

Packets join a queue and are passed on in turn, net latency increases with busy servers so youll never get exactly the same reading... just because youre usied to seeing 100 or 200 or 300 etc, doesnt mean it will always come out that way.

IP:

KiLlEr
Member
posted September 27, 2004 12:45 PM            
Which is why you get an average over several runs.

The chances are statistically worse the more hops your packets need to make. between 10-15 hops will give you average performance. More than 15 hops you are gaurranteed to suffer from alot of lag.

IP:

=DNX= Matrix
Member
posted September 27, 2004 12:51 PM            
Yup.... also if you reach like 30 or 32 hops though, just give in.... theres not much hope beyond that.

IP:

Blue n Gold Sue
Member
posted September 27, 2004 01:37 PM            
Lag was among the worst I have ever seen here.
A tracert shows:
HOST LOSS RCVD SENT BEST AVG WORST
er1.sfo1.speakeasy.net 40% 12 20 207.87 262.13 383.96
210.ge-0-1-0.cr1.sfo1.speakeasy.net 0% 20 20 184.40 259.30 341.74
border4.g3-1.speakeasy-48.sje.pnap.net 5% 19 20 191.56 276.97 461.52
core5.pc0-0-bbnet1.sje.pnap.net 5% 19 20 156.60 253.17 296.31
bpr2-ge-2-3-0.SanJoseEquinix.savvis.net 0% 20 20 158.36 245.48 305.23
dcr2-so-3-2-0.SanFranciscosfo.savvis.net 0% 20 20 183.72 243.45 296.14
bpr2-so-0-0-0.PaloAltoPaix.savvis.net 0% 20 20 151.34 243.50 305.96
bpr1-so-0-0-0.PaloAltoPaix.savvis.net 0% 20 20 153.94 252.55 303.98
p4-0.core01.sjc04.atlas.cogentco.com 0% 20 20 206.07 250.95 310.21
p13-0.core02.sfo01.atlas.cogentco.com 0% 20 20 194.26 247.30 300.01
p15-0.core01.sfo01.atlas.cogentco.com 0% 20 20 161.00 241.52 303.92
p14-0.core01.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com 0% 20 20 176.88 279.91 341.97
p15-0.core02.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com 0% 20 20 120.58 282.31 337.65
p5-0.core01.yyz01.atlas.cogentco.com 5% 19 20 129.59 308.21 463.61
g0-1.na01.b010963-0.yyz01.atlas.cogentco.com 5% 19 20 215.03 310.48 394.90
38.112.120.109 10% 18 20 233.53 309.88 396.36

40% packet loss on the first hop! No wonder I got fragged by Coaxs once when I was at 90 degrees to him and behind his flamer!

A second trace:

C:\>tracert 38.112.120.109

Tracing route to 38.112.120.109 over a maximum of 30 hops

1 * 1609 ms <10 ms 192.168.123.254
2 16 ms 15 ms 16 ms adsl-67-124-61-254.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [67.12
4.61.254]
3 15 ms 16 ms 31 ms dist2-vlan50.snfc21.pbi.net [206.171.134.131]
4 16 ms 16 ms 15 ms bb1-g1-3-0.snfc21.pbi.net [209.232.130.28]
5 16 ms 16 ms 15 ms core1-p6-1.crsfca.sbcglobal.net [151.164.243.121
]
6 15 ms 16 ms 16 ms bb1-p1-0.crsfca.sbcglobal.net [151.164.240.134]

7 15 ms 203 ms 32 ms ex1-p13-1.pxpaca.sbcglobal.net [151.164.40.150]

8 15 ms 16 ms 31 ms asn4006-cogent.pxpaca.sbcglobal.net [151.164.89.
154]
9 16 ms 15 ms 32 ms p13-0.core02.sfo01.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54.1.
253]
10 16 ms 31 ms 16 ms p15-0.core01.sfo01.atlas.cogentco.com [66.28.4.6
9]
11 62 ms 63 ms 62 ms p14-0.core01.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com [66.28.4.1
86]
12 63 ms 62 ms 78 ms p15-0.core02.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com [66.28.4.6
2]
13 78 ms 78 ms 78 ms p5-0.core01.yyz01.atlas.cogentco.com [66.28.4.21
4]
14 78 ms 78 ms 78 ms g0-1.na01.b010963-0.yyz01.atlas.cogentco.com [38
.112.34.102]
15 * 78 ms 78 ms 38.112.120.109

Trace complete.


15 hops for each source.

[This message has been edited by Blue n Gold Sue (edited September 27, 2004).]

IP:

Paranor
Member
posted September 27, 2004 02:48 PM            
What does the processing for your view option - the game engine on the server or your local game engine?

IP:

=DNX= Matrix
Member
posted September 27, 2004 03:26 PM            
Combo of the two as i understand it.... the server sends you the info your system requests to keep your screen upto date according to your settings. I will do some testing on this.

IP:

kv
Member
posted September 27, 2004 07:34 PM            
hmmm.... this arguement seems very familar... oh yeah, been there, done that, solved nothing.

read the posts by Killer and I so you can at least try to understand what you're complaining about: /forums/archive/ubb/Forum2/HTML/003915-3.html

IP:

666
Member
posted September 28, 2004 01:08 AM            
cannot lag be an individual experience due to the amount of resolution you have set?

IP:

mELON cRACKER
Member
posted September 28, 2004 03:12 AM            
Here's one for ya:

C:\>tracert 38.112.120.109

Tracing route to 38.112.120.109 over a maximum of 30 hops

1 ac03.dlls.eli.net [207.173.3.85] reports: Destination net unreachable.

Trace complete.

C:\>tracert 38.112.120.109

Tracing route to 38.112.120.109 over a maximum of 30 hops

1 ac03.dlls.eli.net [207.173.3.85] reports: Destination net unreachable.

Trace complete.

C:\>

wtf?

By the way Pab, proxy servers usually server as a proxy for one or more particular protocols like http and ftp. I don't know of any that will proxy TM offhand. Squid and MSProxy/ISA won't as far as I know. ANything is possible, though I dont know that it would be practical. The traffic still has to get to LDA, and I would suspect that is where the bottle neck is.

[BWL]mELONcRACKER

IP:

kv
Member
posted September 28, 2004 07:52 AM            
quote:
cannot lag be an individual experience due to the amount of resolution you have set?

yes, but only if your system can't handle what you're asking of it. Your view distance or graphic settings have no effect on what the server sends you.

The server has to constantly update every player and weapon position to every other player, even if you can't see that player, because every player and weapon has an effect on the terrain.

IP:

=DNX= Matrix
Member
posted September 28, 2004 07:56 AM            
There goes my theory then, ill leave the rest upto kv, he obviously knows a lot more than we do - so he can sort the best settings for us

IP: