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Author Topic:   Suggestion for Ranked DDMs
Blue n Gold Sue
Member
posted February 01, 2004 06:31 AM            
It seems that there are two camps. I'd like to propose a possible solution. Give going back to stock maps a try. Many (okay I AM) are concerned about the spawn fragging issue and there ARE others with similar concerns, they are just too peaceful to enter another debate. So in order to try to mitigate this concern, maybe we can have a gentleman's (gentleperson's?) agreement to NOT spawn frag.
I've toyed with the idea to have a person type in a chat message "Spawn frag" if that happens, and then take a look at the chat log after the event, but that may just be something that is done in a later step if its needed. I'm hoping that a "member of the TM community" agreement to NOT SPAWN frag, even in ranked events, would suffice. We all know a shot gets taken on occasion without meaning to shoot a fresh spawn, but NO GOING FOR THE INSTANT AND EASY KILL!
What you would be agreeing to:
"Appropriate stock maps" (<--leaving that definition to be decided later) for ranked DDM's along with an agreement to refrain from spawn fragging.
What say you?

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Irascible
Member
posted February 01, 2004 06:49 AM            
Back in the day, we came to a consensus that it was an uncontrollable fact of life. Melon, Coax, myself, others and even Supe all decided it would be a free for all.

However, we have a much smaller group of people now than we did then. It seems like most of the players that show up most of the time are regulars. And most of those are decent people. I think it's entirely possible to get all the regulars to agree to this. The few newbs we get will likely fall in line with a little coaxing.

Not only will the decency of those playing make this possible, but with smaller numbers accountability will go up. Reading some of that old thread, I noticed Coax mentioning that "someone" returned his decision to not spawn frag against him - which caused him to take the gloves off. With the smaller group it will be easier remember that it was that "no good SOB Ras" that spawn fragged, instead of just "someone" - thus discouraging the practice.

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=DNX= Matrix
Member
posted February 01, 2004 10:58 AM            
I thought ranked DDM's were a gloves off anything goes affair anyway

1 question: what happens if 20+ turn up while were using the stock maps instead of the clan maps

[This message has been edited by =DNX= Matrix (edited February 01, 2004).]

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Irascible
Member
posted February 01, 2004 03:35 PM            
Since we spent the better half of the other thread on the question of map selection, I'll answer your question there. We don't want Sue's thread going off topic the second reply in, do we? That topic being, of course, will the BB readers that participate in ranked DDMs be willing to refrain from spawn fragging? It seems quite likely they will since virtually all of them in the old thread expressed a distaste for doing so.

[This message has been edited by Irascible (edited February 01, 2004).]

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Blue n Gold Sue
Member
posted February 01, 2004 04:25 PM            
It was always my intention, in this suggestion, that if spawn fragging became the issue once again, that Clan Maps would be reintroduced.

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Neo
Member
posted February 01, 2004 04:53 PM            
My thoughts on this matter, for those who may find them relevant. Otherwise, carry on.


Spawnfragging is often very cheap and almost always annoying (particularly in ranked matches), but as the saying goes, all's fair in love and war.

For me, being spawnfragged has always been a fact of life in this game, especially in ddms. I've also committed more than my fair share of cheap spawnfrag kills. I'm sorry. I'm sure I had an excuse for each and every one. haha

But I distinctly remember one particular ranked ddm in which i had been continually spawnfragged, even though I had been trying to avoid doing it to others. [This took place at a time when spawnfragging had become a persistent topic on the boards and everyone seemed to be getting completely fed up with it. Nevertheless, there was an abundance of instantaneous spawn deaths going around in the servers, especially during the ddms.]

Eventually, by the third game of the ddm, my frustration with this caused me to become somewhat complacent as to how I obtained my own frags. I drifted into some kind of bloodlust state. I went on a rampage, fragging anything in sight (possibly including teammates), and out of frustration and carelessness, managed to quickly rack up an enormous score. I carried out every possible bad practice in the game, including spawnfrags, fragthieving, and whatever else is generally reprehensible. I can't remember the details of my score, but I think it was a landslide victory for me. I'm pretty sure I did take screenshots of the scoreboard that eventually worked their way into the ddm screenshot archives. It turned out to be the most phenomenal game/score I ever had.

But it was disappointing to say the least. I suppose I was hoping for acknowledgement or some other kind of reward, because regardless of what methods I had used, it seemed like a very impressive score anyway. But instead of congratulations, I was met with hostility and disapproval. At the time, I thought it was hypocritical that players who had spawnfragged me could turn around and complain that I had won by spawnfragging and other generally "bad" practices. I thought, "maybe they're just jealous!". I wasn't convinced that I had won only through carelessness, recklessness, and spawnfragging. I didn't believe that there was no skill, luck, or effort involved. It was the result of a combination of all kinds of factors.

Anyway, the point is, no matter how much it is hated, spawnfragging is GOING to happen. We're going to just have to deal with it as an occupational hazard. Maybe we don't have to ENDORSE it, or even accept it, but just deal with it. It happens, and whether it does so by accident or design, I don't think anyone has ever won a single game solely by spawnfragging. Not even me. It takes a lot more than that.

If spawnfragging seems cheap to you, then I would say to just feel free to spawnfrag the habitual spawnfraggers, and nobody else. On the other hand, if some players want to spawnfrag, then they can, but they can expect it in return from everyone else on the server.

But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.


EDIT: typographical error

[This message has been edited by Neo (edited February 02, 2004).]

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coaxs
Member
posted February 01, 2004 04:56 PM            
I will not spawn frag.

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Tread Marks Ladders

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Irascible
Member
posted February 01, 2004 05:08 PM            
Spawn fragging WILL happen Neo. Your statement regarding spawn fragging the spawn fraggers is right on. Some people are incorrigible. But the question is will YOU commit to avoid it or not? I need to know if you are a cheap source of frags or not.

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=DNX= Matrix
Member
posted February 01, 2004 09:20 PM            
Someone let me know what the final result is from all this discussion - until then count me out of it.

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KiLlEr
Member
posted February 01, 2004 10:51 PM            
These discussions just affirm my decision not to play. :/

Hey Neo, I feel for ya. I got into a similar situation myself when I started playing. It got me so agrivated that I decided on never playing on the LDA servers and taking part in these *********.

I'll just stick to playing on my servers. (as soon as I feel well enough to reinstall everything on that server)

[This message has been edited by KiLlEr (edited February 01, 2004).]

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Neo
Member
posted February 02, 2004 06:05 AM            
Ras, i guess what i'm saying is that i don't really LIKE getting spawn fragged any more than anybody else, and i don't particularly like spawn fragging others, but i HAVE done it in the past. sometimes it was on purpose, sometimes it seemed more like an instinctual kind of thing. in either case, maybe it upped my score slightly, but that made me feel worse about myself instead of better. so in general, no, i don't spawn frag anymore. but if someone purposely spawn frags me an unreasonable number of times, then i think it's safe to say that i might eventually decide to put on a spawn fragging CLINIC for that player.

but i don't really play much anymore, anyway. so how relevant is any of this? not very!

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666
Member
posted February 02, 2004 04:36 PM            
IMHO, spawnfragging has more to do with the map design than the players. And I proved it by creating the clan maps. The cries of spawnfragging disappeared from the forums along with rutting and spawning without a weapon. The clan maps are designed to use the terrain (hills, valleys, and trees) to slow the action and weapon spawn points that are placed outside the battlefield. If you don’t spawn into an on going melee one will not get spawnfragged. The clan maps have a high number of spawn points from 60-80 depending on the map. A high ratio of spawn points to players contributed to the elimination of spawnfragging. The flaw of the clan maps is that you need a clan battle to cut down on the distance a player travels to the nearest melee.

Of the LDA stock maps, there are two types of maps, racing and DM. The Race maps have the spawn point that doesn’t have weapons and are in the middle of the battlefields. The race maps have the best terrain for making multiple battlefields, but undesirable weapon placement that leads to spawnfragging. The race maps are the maps most the player likes to battle on.

The DM stock maps would be perfect for the ranked DDM except that the terrain does not lend itself to separate battlefields. In fact, most of the DM stock maps are one big battlefield with weapon points in the middle of the battlefields. Therefore spawnfragging will prevail.

What I need to do is create DM versions of the race maps. It would be a down version of the clan maps. One of the requirements for a clan map was the terrain had to have 5 battlefields. The DM versions would be 3 battlefields close together. This would suit a battle of 10-20 players.

What to do for now?

Last night, Coax, Ras, Goku, Queen and 666 sat down and discussed what would be the best stock DM and race maps to use for the ranked DDM for an attendance of 8-20 players. I have the list of 13 maps. I need to review the ratio of real weapon spawn sites to total of spawn sites for the race maps.

I hope that this will resolve the question for now for the next ranked DDM this Sunday.

I will list the map we will use later this week.


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Queen, may I always be your King…signed Tin Horn Community Admin Dictator

[This message has been edited by 666 (edited February 02, 2004).]

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Neo
Member
posted February 02, 2004 06:59 PM            
DONT YOU DARE LEAVE OUT DM BLACK MESA!!

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666
Member
posted February 02, 2004 08:29 PM            
Relax Neo, DM Black Mesa is one of the good DM stock maps.

But I forgot. This Sunday is the B Day bash. So there will be lots of time to discuss this.

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Queen, may I always be your King…signed Tin Horn Community Admin Dictator
Race Ladder Results & Downloads

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Neo
Member
posted February 03, 2004 12:43 AM            
ohhh thank god

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=DNX= Matrix
Member
posted February 03, 2004 02:44 AM            
Thought didnt play anymore Neo

Dave... my ears were burning ..... lol

[This message has been edited by =DNX= Matrix (edited February 03, 2004).]

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coaxs
Member
posted February 03, 2004 05:28 AM            
I think we're tired of mod maps, just use stock.

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Tread Marks Ladders

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Irascible
Member
posted February 03, 2004 05:56 AM            
K.I.S.S.

Keep it simple Stu... err, Satan.

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666
Member
posted February 03, 2004 09:35 AM            
Actually, the future of TM is mods, not stock. This is something that I did not quite understand and I was always thinking on how to attact new players. TM will have a long future if it focus on the mod aspect of the game. What LDA needs to do is be the center for all downloads of mods. I am working on this to see if it will happen. If LDA did become the center of mod downloading it becomes a simple task to have run modded servers and state which mod is needed to play that server.

Yes, I say it agian. The long future for TM is mods. Players that want to just frag will always go to the next game. But the ones that want to create and then play those creations for all to enjoy...yes...this is the future of TM. But LDA need to support this future by becoming the center for downloading. Yes, I am working on this. Will take any suggestions though.

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coaxs
Member
posted February 03, 2004 02:31 PM            
666 you have officially gone crazy.

First there is a center for modding its at RC's site.

2nd there are those who wouldn't put their mods at LDA since they like traffic at their repective sites.

3rd Its not your decision to dictate what will be on the servers or the future of TM

4th Sorry modders, but mods have never had a lasting effect. Or you would see people playing the Storm ppack or anarchy pack. Sorry, but what have I and others played for the past 4years+, stock maps and weapons at the LDA server. Mods are just eye-candy to indulge in every now ant then while stock is the meat and potatoes.

5th If you can't give us one *** **** stock server, I'll just host one on the Berkeley network. Being a server admin is not that complicated your only function is to put the server we want up.

6th Starting from this day forward only stock maps will be included for rank on www.coaxs.net . Use of any other non-stock map will not be ranked. Sorry, you forced my only hand that can stop you from hijacking TM.

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Tread Marks Ladders

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666
Member
posted February 03, 2004 02:39 PM            
Coax, I am rational. RC's site is incomplete and can come or go. Any and all the site for downloading can come and go and have. LDA needs to commit to supporting the community of modders by having a download site for all mods.

If TM was to be just stock and only stock it would have disappear within a year or so. But it has been kept alive by the modders. Most of the folks who are in the game for fragging have gone on to other games. Yes, some fraggers have stuck around, but even those players have turned into modders. And yes we will get new folks, but what keeps them is the large cache of mods readily available for play.

The coolest part of TM is the easy of modding the maps, tanks, weapons, and then hosting it on your server. This is the strengthen of TM and its future.

I have nothing against a stock server, but only a stock server will not keep the player coming back for more. It is the mods that bring the folks back and will continue to bring them back.

Sorry if you misinterpreted what I meant.

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coaxs
Member
posted February 03, 2004 02:49 PM            
As long as the rank DDMs use stock maps, I'm fine with whatever pet project a modder has. But, I and others have had are fill with non-stock maps for rank DDMs.

So say it publicly now that you will use only stock maps for ranks DDMs, and you will not here a peep from me.

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Tread Marks Ladders

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KiLlEr
Member
posted February 03, 2004 04:11 PM            
666 is right about the mods sites comming and going. I don't know if my site will be up past June. I'm averaging less than 100 visits a month (mostly from 666, Queen and BZP) where just 6 months ago it was over a thousand.

The logscan system is only actively collecting data from the community, Hallstead, and Robo servers. Only the community server gets more than one or two players at a time regularly.

As for mod-o-palooza, for the month that its been up have only recieved 90 visits, mostly RC and me. You'd think it a site like would generate a lot more visits. Well, it have until June to start generating more visits. :/

Basically, there has been a huge downturn in intrest (webalizer logs don't lie).

Even with my new mods that I released didn't do much of anything to improve traffic. (actually, they're not new, they were near complete mods that I never released, hence the quick and dirty texture for the mole missle. LOL. I still have about 20 maps that I stopped working on which haven't been released, and prolly won't see the light of day.)

Sorry for rambling, being home for the past 2 1/2 weeks restricted to laying down for most of the time gets me down.

[This message has been edited by KiLlEr (edited February 03, 2004).]

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Blue n Gold Sue
Member
posted February 03, 2004 04:21 PM            
Wasn't there an agreement to do "certain" stock maps for the ranked DDM just now. If and when spawn fragging became a prevalent problem then this issue would be raised again.
Problem is, this month the Birthday bash is on Feb 8th, which was formerly a ranked DDM day. So for THIS MONTH only, shall we do stock or clan, given we MAY have a good turnout?

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Irascible
Member
posted February 03, 2004 04:40 PM            
(TM2) + (fat marketing budget) = (future success of TM)

Since the left side of that equation doesn't appear to exist, neither does the right. Mods don't fit into that equation any place. Mods keep old timers distracted. Mods don't bring in newbs. Killer's stats regarding traffic bears that out. In fact, given that Killer has seen a deep decline in traffic at a time in TM's history where we've had tremendous modding variety, it seems that the mods have been futile at best and even counter productive at worst. The picture gets even more grim when you consider that the northern hemisphere is in its "stay inside and sit at the computer" season. Summer won't be helpful.

But, I must say that I admire your deep thought on the matter 666. You get the clichéd "A" for effort and caring. You took the only thing within your power to change and formulated a logic that said that thing was the future of TM. In a way it's a noble effort. I just think that that effort relies on a flawed premise. Only the game developer has any real power to create TM's future. It seems they've thrown in the towel.

Sue, there was an agreement. One might have called it a force majeure at the dinner table. But, it seems that 666's opening reply in this thread abandoned that in favor of a "not so modded mod map".

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