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Author Topic:   Are we going to have tank cheats and ringers playing Clan DDMs?
Irascible
Member
posted January 29, 2004 04:41 AM            
I missed last Clan DDM. I plan on being in the next one. I was just browsing the current Clan DDM thread. We again had alias players. Is this acceptable?

Matrix, I can't remember where, but you at least tacitly agreed with me that requiring our real names in such a ranked competition made sense. To do otherwise leaves the door open to ringers. I can point you to the other thread where we discussed this. But I don't care to link that unpleasantness. The logic of such a requirement is obvious on the face of it.

SSO Tanks: A level playing field requires that all participants have available to them the same tools. It's NOT a level playing field because not all players know how to access them, therefore it's a cheat. I only finally learned tonight how to access them myself because another player was hotter than hell about seeing a particular player in a SSO tank. He's too mild mannered to make a public stink about it. But I'm not. Coax, I asked you to start a thread on the issue and you agreed to. The purpose of that thread was to publicly announce your intention to use it, to get group approval, and to make others aware of how to access them. It obviously never happened. So what we have is an unapproved mod forced on to others without their consent.

Here's the deal: Ultimately I will adapt to whatever happens. But should we insist on turning ranked competitions into a circus, then I will play along. A fellow clansman and I have agreed to rally BWL members next clan. Most or all of us will have that one SSO tank and use alias names. AND, next ranked DDM I will show up SSO'ed and alias'ed. If I win any, and assuming others insist that alias names are valid in Clan DDMs, then Coax will have no other choice but to credit me my ranked wins. If it's good for one ranked event then it's good for another.

Your choice. I prefer the old fashioned way. But I will bend to the will of the peepuls.

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coaxs
Member
posted January 29, 2004 06:36 AM            
Not using your regular playing handle is bad. Anyone further not using their handle will not have their frags counted. I will be placing this in the Ladders' RULES AND DISCLAIMER section on the site. So consider this the official notice from my end. Feel free not to use your name, if you don't want frags counted.

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Tread Marks Ladders

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Irascible
Member
posted January 29, 2004 06:48 AM            
Hmm. TY Coax. Though you just obviated the need for half of my opening post. :P

Since I can't edit the thread title, I won't edit out the stuff about alias names. So the only issue that remains that I would like addressed is the SSO tanks.

IMO Coax's fav SSO tank is unbalanced. It's hard to hit because it's low to the ground, it's relatively fast, it's stable AND it has tough armor. You don't see all that in any other tank, especially liquid tanks. It needs to go IMO. But, if this is a done deal, then I think I might be switching tanks. :P

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BamZipPow
Member
posted January 29, 2004 07:38 AM            
Ras...

If the servers were updated with the proper configs of the stock unfinished LDA tanks, we wouldn't be discussing this "cheat" as you call it.

On my server, I made those corrections so all of the weapons were properly mounted. This was an update to RexR's original discovery of the "hidden" unused tanks. I believe all he did was add the name to those tanks and didn't change the other attributes but I might be wrong as I didn't make that mod.

I, however, did make the changes on my server to bring the "hidden" unused/unfinished tanks to the same level of the "stock"/finished tanks which included the proper mounting of weapons, same top speed, same armor/mass, same acceleration, and a decent flag point. The original settings of these unused "hidden" tanks were part of the original slower settings of the 1.0.1 game. Acceleration was at 15 instead of 20 and some of the tank masses were less than the default value of 1.

But making those changes and putting them on the servers would have made them "mods" and not to the original specs of the released game. So any local "modifications" are overwritten (via syncing) when connecting to the stock servers and would negate the "leveling" of said "updates". That would end up making them "stock" tanks again.

It wouldn't be that hard to either update the servers or take the ents out completely from the servers. But that would make it a modded server and not stock anymore.

Heck, we could save a lot of space by taking out all of the unused ents, meshes, textures, sounds, img files that aren't being used by the stock game. But that would make it a modded server and not stock anymore.

If you count the number of tanks on a stock install, you should find 28 tanks ents in the RaceTank folder. Of that number, only 8 are not named in their respective ents but they are still considered stock even though they aren't as finished like the rest of the tanks. So all anyone would need to do is edit those ents by adding the line

Name = Tank #

fer each appropriate tank. Or they could just get RexR's hidden tanks mod.

Is it still stock if you take out certain weapons, tanks, or maps then? Even if the means justifies the end? But that would make it a modded server and not stock anymore.

I know we play the modded maps on the server as the allowance of those maps has made things simpler/complex/better/worse than before depending on one's viewpoint. So would allowance of other mods to the stock game still make it stock even though we've already modded the server?

Don't get me wrong...anything to make gameplay better or more exciting/fun is well worth the investment. I would like to see the "hidden" unused tanks "updated" on the servers as well.

I've already converted all the remaining untriangulated meshes (tanks/weapons) in Treadmarks with the appropriate names and LUV files and would like to see them as well as the updated "hidden" tanks to be included in the next update to Treadmarks.

As you know, taking the time to mod in this game is fer the love/learning of the game/modding and not much fer anything else. That would help alleviate this "cheating" (as you have called it) to the game.

But until that time comes, what does the rest of the community say to the addition of these neglected tanks to the stock servers? It would eliminate discussion of this so called "cheat" and put more stock tanks fer the enjoyment of the other players.

That's only 8 files to update...

BTW...if you want to know some of the other "enhancements"...ICQ me! I should get my server back up and running before I disappear again and it will have a few experimental tests on there, too!

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=DNX= Matrix
Member
posted January 29, 2004 08:51 AM            
I see your points Ras, now b4 i drag the 6 inch nail outta my head, i wanna say a couple of bits.

1) I did say when DNx-Noob connected that he ran the risk of not having his score counted.

2) I didnt know who DNx-Noob was until id seen the gameplay and SSO Tank (in game 2)

3) I dont have a KICK command handy, or I would have done that myself.

4) LDA Put these SSO tanks in the game, they ARE stock, there have been varioius threads on the issue and if ppl dont know how to access them, that is by large their own fault for not reading the boards. To me If its by LDA then its stock, not a cheat and not a mod. Enabling these is another matter as you have to get the ents that turn them on. IMHO i see no reason why they cant be used.

I know opinion is divided, so ill just let yall battle it out, like Ras, ill bend to whatever the community decide. Bear in mind though, that the clan maps arent stock either, they are mods and we do allow them. We also edit out use of the shadow ... a mod, no ?

Well, thats my 2p ... have fun

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Rex R
Member
posted January 29, 2004 12:39 PM            
what I did with the unused tanks was to; name them (with the names used by DVSduke), correct[1] the weapon/flag bolton coords, set the max speed/max accel to match the rest of the tanks.
note: when I logged on sunday there was an odd AI tank on the server.

1) the 8-ball is odd tank out for boltons

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Blue n Gold Sue
Member
posted January 29, 2004 01:54 PM            
Names- YES, they must be used, for all the reasons previously discussed.
SSO STOCK tanks - divided on that. Coaxs uses the SSO tank, but the other tank he prefers is also very low to the ground. I'm pretty neutral there

As for that AI tank, which I also commented on. That may have been from me, in retrospect. I started to log on with my GBV skin for the dwarf. I started up the game and before I was all the way in, but joined by the server, I realized it, exited out, and got the red dwarf back. When I found that AI tank I was surprised, but in retrospect, it just my have been me, joining a CLAN game (though during the warm ups) before I checked all my settings... my apologies.

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Irascible
Member
posted January 29, 2004 03:11 PM            
If one has to download and install something to use it, it's a mod. Since clan maps were mentioned twice as justification, I'll remind you that I have been opposed to them as well.

We are talking about competitive events here, not the lotto. As such, things that enhance luck should be avoided. Clan maps with our typical ranked DDM turnout enhances the luck factor. These mod tanks enhance luck in as much as not everyone has access to them. Not everyone reads or wants to read the BB.

It has been the will of two or three people that has brought these mods into ranked events. And much of it has been applied by edict rather than vote. So what changes are we in store for next? We now have mod maps and mod tanks. All that remains to be added is mod weapons. I can hardly wait.

[This message has been edited by Irascible (edited January 29, 2004).]

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Irascible
Member
posted January 29, 2004 03:48 PM            
Incidentally, 666 (I'm sure you're reading this thread):

When the topic of altering terrain deformation came up in the past, you have opposed it based on the notion that doing so would alter game play, and it would. Well I'm sure you now have seen the light on that matter. Clan maps in a HUGE way and even these mod tanks in a small way most definitely alter game play. What's good for the goose. Should that subject ever come up again, I'm glad to know I will have your support. :P

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coaxs
Member
posted January 29, 2004 05:02 PM            
First off theit not Mod Tanks
Second they don't even fall in what we would classify as sso, because its on everones TM install.
Third A better classification is hidden stock tanks, or unfinished stock tanks would be more apt.
Fourt the download for the tanks is on www.coaxs.net in the Download section.

If everyone downloaded the clan maps they don't even need to download these tanks in order for them to play properly in events or see them. They are stock tanks, if you want to play with them download is at my site, simply click sig.

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Tread Marks Ladders

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KONG
Member
posted January 29, 2004 08:11 PM            
quote:
It has been the will of two or three people that has brought these mods into ranked events. And much of it has been applied by edict rather than vote. So what changes are we in store for next?

heh, that applies to more than the "ranked" events

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=DNX= Matrix
Member
posted January 29, 2004 09:13 PM            
So in essence, if im picking this up right, we should go back to the stock LDA maps, bitching about spawn killinng and forget the clan maps. Ditch the stock tanks that are already in everyones install, and reinstate the shadow since giving it a weight of zero IS modding it however justified.

I recon if LDA puttem there, we should use em, i further suggest that since the download has been made available ppl should get it along with the MODDED clan maps, MODDED Flag pack and UNHIDDEN Stock Tanks.

My suggestion is basicly thus, go back to the dark ages, or put everything we need for the clan battles in a single zip download.

Names - I would agree - we should DEFINATELY use our own names.

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Irascible
Member
posted January 29, 2004 09:42 PM            
So we agree on one thing and not another. You must admit, that's progress.

As far as the dark ages go, that is your opinion. I will spare you the history lesson. Suffice it to say that as in most major changes that happen, it was three particularly vocal people that pushed the issue and made it happen. When the two most skilled and LIKED players bitch and whine, others will get on the bandwagon for reasons they don't even understand. Yes, there was some positive feedback. And yes, event attendance is now abysmal and does not justify the use of clan maps.

As far as I'm concerned, we are NOW in the dark ages. We have so few players so often that clan maps disperse them too far out. So of the top few players that play in any one game, the one that is LUCKY enough to spawn fairly close to targets more often than the other will win. You think that's progress? Pfft. At the very least, Coax and Max have both expressed similar sentiments in regards to ranked DDMs. And 666 has expressed a willingness to switch to stock maps for the same. We'll see if he remembers that conversation.

[This message has been edited by Irascible (edited January 29, 2004).]

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coaxs
Member
posted January 29, 2004 10:07 PM            
Yeah the turnout just doesn't justify the use of clan maps at this point. There is no issue of psawn fragging if thir are 8 people.

Anyways the tanks are stock, it shouldn't even be an issue. If you want them they're on my site, more traffic for me woohoo; maybe some more people will sign my guest map.

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Tread Marks Ladders

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Irascible
Member
posted January 29, 2004 10:26 PM            
I'm sure you noticed I didn't say a word about the tanks in my last reply. I bow to the will of the power brokers... err, the sheeple... err, "community". *cough* :P

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Sailor
Administrator
posted January 29, 2004 10:45 PM            
So if I get this right the hidden tanks in TM are not mods right? Then why do you have to download ENT files to see them. If they were stock tanks already in the game they would show on the tank selection screen without having to install the .ent files for them. That is a mod as far as I can tell. But then again I never was very politically correct in my thought processes. Maybe I do not understand MODS!

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May you always have a following Sea a cool breeze at your back and the comfort of those you hold nearest to your heart.
Sailor's Home Port


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=DNX= Matrix
Member
posted January 29, 2004 10:55 PM            
Looks like back to everything stock then, not even a flag pack - Im game, and i have nothing to add thats going to be useful or constructive

First one to moan and bitch about spawn fragging can go talk to Ras then 666 respectively

Sailor - The objects are stock, but you do need to mod the ents in order to use them, so yes the ents are mods. But then so is the shadow if the weight is changed. If were gonna do this - lets at least do it properly so nobody has an advantage

Stock Everything.... nothing changed ... at all.

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Irascible
Member
posted January 29, 2004 11:37 PM            
"First one to moan and bitch about spawn fragging can go talk to Ras..."

Just give the word. I've got a toll free number and would love to engage in witty banter or heated debate, their choice.

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666
Member
posted January 30, 2004 01:15 AM            
Nice weather today...LOL

Coax is no better with his new tank then with the old tank. I am somewhat indifferent to it. But to be fair we should let all download it. If it was a part of the original TM 1.6 I have no problem with it. It would be good to add to the stale stock tank choices.

Here is the link: http://www.geocities.com/coaxs/hiddenssotanks.zip

I will make it available on the race server also.

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Queen, may I always be your King…signed Tin Horn Community Admin Dictator
Race Ladder Results & Downloads

[This message has been edited by 666 (edited January 30, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by 666 (edited January 30, 2004).]

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=DNX= Matrix
Member
posted January 30, 2004 01:44 PM            
Ras .... my kinda guy

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mELON cRACKER
Member
posted January 30, 2004 07:34 PM            
As the person who started this, I feel my 2 cents or 2p are in order.
I personally feel that the new tank's attributes are not in line with the other tanks which are visible by default. It has the benefits, but does not have the detriments that the other short liquid tanks have, such as speed and handling penalties to compensate for their low cross section/profile, which makes them harder to hit. My feeling is that this tank was likely left out of the game because of this.
Let's start at the beginning. Many months ago, at about 4AM on the Pool Table or Soccer server, I forget which, BZP was using the new tanks and he told me how to activate them. I thought that it was an interesting novely, but soon deleted the Addons folder which I had modded to activate the tanks, and forgot all about it. I didn't think that it would be kosher to start using them except maybe on designated servers. The last thing I want is to have some sort of unfair advantage over someone, because like I told Ras, then it's not a game then is it? It's someone gratifying their ego at the expense of others. That's not what I am here for.
So, many months later when Coax is doing the Texas Two Step all under my plane of fire, and I can't remember how to activate the tanks, I was a bit upset. It's not like it was common knowledge about their existence until a few weeks ago, much less how to activate them. Search this board for "hidden tanks" and all you will find that is relevant is a post where some people are exchanging the info via email and Coax is, jokingly or not, complaining about "losing his advantage". Search Google for "hidden Tread Marks tanks" and you will not find anything either. I don't remember specifically whether BZP asked me to keep quiet about the new tanks when he told me about them, but my recollection is that he did. If there was no stigma attached to the new tanks, or doubt about whether they were kosher, then there should have been a post on this forum, which is the first place I, and I assume others, looked. I ended up figuring it out myself all over again through comparison of the .ent files. But by then, I had plenty of time to stew about it.
I don't really care about all the extraneous issues that have been brought up by this such as Clan Map use, etc. But I think that if someone is going to be using a tank which is not part of the standard game, then all should have a chance to use it. It's quite different than a map or a flag, which all tanks in the game experience. And it's different than a weapon, which everyone in the game has some chance of picking up.
As I told Ras, I would not have had a problem with the use of the hidden tanks if their existence and use was common knowledge.
So if any of you all have an issue with that, let's hear it.

[BWL]mELONcRACKER

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kv
Member
posted January 30, 2004 08:35 PM            
question: these "stock" tanks, is the server running the fixed versions or the originals?

and just how modded is the clan DDM? I just realised that even though I have all the downloads (maps, flags) to play on the server, I still sync almost 400 files when I join, why?

I also have to agree with the clan map issue, the edited versions remove some of the fun of the map.

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Irascible
Member
posted January 30, 2004 08:57 PM            
Most of the synching files are probably the flag pack. The admin believes it better to lag everyone out with synching files than to deal with unsightly but otherwise completely meaningless errors on the server chat screen.

But, what if just ONE of those files isn't a flag? The question of how stock is stock becomes most interesting indeed. What if, by accident of course, the armor on someone's favorite and little used tank got bumped up? Why, no one else would notice because we've been trained to accept synching entities on supposedly stock events. Hmmmmmm..... A most devilish pandora's box indeed. Teehee.

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yugo2
Member
posted January 31, 2004 12:42 AM         

My tank is a bare stock tank and whats more its from an eastern block country. I take pride in its busted spedometer and the windows don't roll down. What I count on, and it doesn't always deliver, is the nimble slight of hand and hawk eye (dove really, gotta qualify that these days) focus that preserves what little is left of the human component of the online game world.

Now that I know there are people doping their metal, I feel a little better about my performance after having been gone for so long. Crack is bad, so is growth hormone etc- win on your own power and feel good about it- there is nothing like it.

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Irascible
Member
posted January 31, 2004 01:17 AM            
Yugo,

I referred to the particular tank in question as a cheat primarily because the weapons didn't mount to it correctly and were partially hidden in its original form. And as you may have noticed, I started this thread referencing Clan DDMs. That tank's weapons mounting issue had been fixed at least on LDA's servers, which host the Clan DDMs, before I even started the thread.

Of course, there remains the issue of whether or not that tank is balanced. Some say yes, some say no. But in any event there is no evidence of anyone "doping their tanks", that is unless you believe the tank that Melon refers to is unbalanced. The servers automatically synch everyone's tank characteristics everytime you log on to a server. So if you believe a tank is doped, all you need to do is switch to it in game and you'll know soon enough.

I suppose that was a technical way of saying that you should not feel a little better. Your performance is all your own.

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