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Author Topic:   Compromise on Clan War Limits (Need Concensus: You Must Post)
coaxs
Member
posted September 28, 2003 12:56 AM            
Fine lets make a limit, but where? If a server can hold 24 people. Clans are DNX, BWL, DOG, GA, LWA. That means 5 people can show up for each clan?

I still want a non limited clan war. Seriously whats the point of joining a clan if you can't participate in clan events? The whole reason we even have a LWA was because people wanted to play in these events! So obviously being able to play in these events is important to people. The non-limited clan wars can be considered non-ranked and the top 5 fraggers of the clan can have the rights to fight the following ranked limited clan war(this is aimed for DNX members).

If this is an okay proposition, we'll consider this sundays' clan war a case of an un-ranked but un-limited clan war. And we'll rotate ranked-limited and unranked-unlimited clan wars into the already agreed on DDM schedule.

This is a fair compromise in my opinion, so lets here comments.

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Tread Marks Ladders

[This message has been edited by coaxs (edited September 28, 2003).]

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Blue n Gold Sue
Member
posted September 28, 2003 03:20 AM            
First off, the server is set for 30 players.
For people who dont' have to work weekends, it may not be a big deal to change dates/times/rules, but some of us DO work weekends and DO have to make concessions to be off on Sundays. I have every 4th Sunday marked on my calendar and I work hard to get those Sundays off. Sometimes I have to trade a shift or two in order to make it. Yes, that is my choice, but it should also make it clear that I do it because I LIKE the Clan Battles and that I do want them to be fair.
My preference: To have a set number of players per clan- all playing at the same time in the same game.
If we choose to have a mosh pit of a clan battle, then let it be another day and perhaps another time. We have been *discussing* the Sunday rotation for quite a while now... 1st Sunday is x, 2nd Sunday is Ranked DDM, 3rd Sunday is y, 4th Sunday is Ranked Clan Battle with limited number of players per clan, 5th Sunday (when they occur) can be a z event. Maybe even on a Clan Battle Day it can be part of the warm up or cool down period, BUT NOT PART OF THE AGREED UPON EVENT. Maybe from 3:30 to 4:30 is a clan free-for-all. People can then hit ICQ to decide which 5 or 6 players from each clan gets to play the ranked event with the ranked Clan Battle starting on the first full game after 5 pm (all pacific time zones).
I'm just throwing some ideas around here, but lets leave the ranked things ALONE. There was enough bickering about those events to have to open up that can of worms again!
Umm, reminder. October's Clan Battle will have maps picked by DOG Clan (death comes before dianetix in the alphabet).

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Blue n Gold Sue
Member
posted September 28, 2003 03:30 AM            
Oh, and what about Temporal Chaos, Zyon Enterprises, and the soon to appear Clan eVIL. Don't they deserve a mention? AoD did officially declare themselves debunked, so I am not forgetting them. What about T3S.. they have, apparently 3 members, but since they haven't declared themselves, I haven't sent anyone from T3S the IP:port for the clan battle server. I think they *should* count in the clan battles. They just have to declare themselves...
So that makes DNX, BWL, DOG, GA, LWA, T3S, and eVIL full clans (each with more than 3 members) - or seven clans total next month. With 5 players each we are over our 30 person server limit. Uh OH! We may have to deal with this another day, as we haven't hit the server limit yet. Just keep this in mind for future debates.

What is the "rule" about when a clan is a recognized clan? I seem to recall something about needing at least 3 members. Was that a figment of my imagination or is that an accepted rule? Just wondering about this when TC and ZE show up on a Clan Battle day.. do they count? Can they join forces and be a joint clan for a day? This seems to be what was agreed upon in the past, but I can't find verification for it.

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Irascible
Member
posted September 28, 2003 03:49 AM            
It's nice to see you asking for the rotation instead of forcing it Coax. :^) The ultimate outcome of your proposal depends upon the outcome of Sue's thread. If peeps decide no limits in general, then you don't have to worry about rotation. Though I have a feeling that the limit will stand. I have no problem with your idea. Historically we've averaged a CW every two and a half months. Having a ranked CW every two months would maintain that consistency.

Come on Sue, if you didn't like worms you wouldn't have started the vote thread. :^) You could have just demanded the prior agreement be honored. I also have no problem leaving things alone.

In summary, I vote for the day when Par ran a benevolent dictatorship. All this democracy and bloodless coups just sucks.

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coaxs
Member
posted September 28, 2003 05:28 AM            
I didn't count those clans becuase they have 3 or less active members. I don't think 3 members is a concensus agreement just a de facto number now.

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Tread Marks Ladders

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Teulk
Member
posted September 28, 2003 11:06 AM            
Does that mean if only 2 DOG's show, we won't be considered a clan??

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=DNX= Matrix
Member
posted September 28, 2003 11:29 AM            
Ok, example time:

Scenario 1: server hold 30 ppl
Clan players Allowed : 5

Say only 3 clans show up ... and only 4 ppl from each clan, thats 12 ppl when the server can accommodate more, and theres more waiting to play. Kinda a waste really.

Scenario 2: server hold 30 ppl
Clan players Allowed : Unlimited

The server fills, clans with just a few players are hard to find to get score off, clans that have many ppl showing up are providing many more targets to score off in the utter confusion.

- In a perfect world, everything is measured, set and even. This is TM, who cares weather iits even or not, turn what you see as a disadvantage into an advantage - thats called war ! and surely thats the point.

I think it would be fun to mix these types of event - be interesting to run a separate ladder for the "who gives a crap how many from where turn up" games just to see hoe ppls skills fare in an uneven situation.

And sry for pointing this out, but did u just call Par a dictator too ?

[This message has been edited by =DNX= Matrix (edited September 28, 2003).]

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Sailor
Administrator
posted September 28, 2003 01:35 PM            
I vote with Sue - leave the 4th Sunday as ranked with limits for balance and yes I know Matrix that war is hell and unfair and this does not fit those realities, but as you have said many times this is only a game and does not have to fit reality so work it as agreed by the majority and have unlimited clan wars another day and or time. Nice thought Coax.

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May you always have a following Sea a cool breeze at your back and the comfort of those you hold nearest to your heart.
Sailor's Home Port


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Irascible
Member
posted September 28, 2003 05:09 PM            
LOL Matey! Are you so wound up from our other discussion that you take everything I say serious! Man.

Don't believe me. You won't anyway. Go ask Par yourself. Have him read this friggin thread and see what he says. I had discussions with him before about his server. He asked the people about certain issues. On others, he just made the decision. It was his server and he could do as he pleased. It's an old joke, and given that I'm sure you haven't heard it, that little kids will tell their dads that they live in a democracy and have rights. The father will respond that the kid lives in a benevolent dictatorship with no rights. Why? Cause dad provides literally all the support for the kid and therefore dad makes all the rules... benevolently of course. It seems like we didn't have nearly so much incessant debate when Par ran the show cause it was his server and he decided when to ask and when not to.

Relax! The juicy stuff is in the other thread.

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Teulk
Member
posted September 28, 2003 06:55 PM            
Might as well go ahead and clone it over here too!! Seems like either thread is in the way to a record-posting frenzy...

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Irascible
Member
posted September 28, 2003 09:06 PM            
LOL! You're not being helpful Teulk.

We are finished with the festivities anyway. Better luck next time.

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Teulk
Member
posted September 28, 2003 09:30 PM            
At least I got a smile out of thie whole deal

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=DNX= Matrix
Member
posted September 28, 2003 09:40 PM            
Make that 2 Doug, they still servin' drinks ? make mine a double

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Teulk
Member
posted September 28, 2003 09:48 PM            
NP...what would you have...mines JD at the moment, but I'm about to switch to Paralyzers (Tequila and Kahlua)....strictly for medicinal purposes you understand!!"

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coaxs
Member
posted September 28, 2003 10:00 PM            
Put your input Teulk.

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Tread Marks Ladders

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=DNX= Matrix
Member
posted September 28, 2003 10:06 PM            
Make Mine a Black Russian - extra strong

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Teulk
Member
posted September 28, 2003 10:08 PM            
Sorry, that's the other half's drink...no can do...would be a divorce if I let those out of the house...those and Rusty Nails...so try again,...
BTW...miss your board...

Coaxs...???w??

If it's regarding numbers per team per player, it seems a moot point as it stands..with the obtuse numbers in each clan, it is impossible to satisfy ANYBODY at this point.
We come to play...if we get reamed by the numbers of our oppoonents, so be it...did we not come to play?? If it is to be the point for the battle to be completely fair, then the numbers should be EQUAL for all clans...and how do you/we propose to do THAT??
If we come to have fun and shoot the living daylights out of each other, then the numbers should not make a difference. True, it is nice to win sometimes..hell, anytime would be nice in my book, but I don't play enough (or well enough) for this to be a mitigating factor in my vote.
So the choices come to 2

1) even steven for all clans for a true clan battle..and that means even numbers regardless of the quality of the players. And from what I've seen, some clans are definitely in the plus column when it comes to talent, so this means the same clans will win if the same players are given free hand to play. That will never change. There are always some better than others-no argument there.

2) All out battle..no limitation on numbers...clans with the most players will win hands down (only logical, of course--I could be wrong--you may have two of the best players playing 20 of the worst and they COULD come out on top--you never know)

Then again, there are so many variations to pull on this scenario, it boggles the mind. Player rotation, clan rotation, round robin, three tier play--- I mean, where does it end??
Run it like the Stanley Cup Finals, or the AL/NL Worlds Series...who will be happy??

NOT EVERYBODY!!!!!

And when was the last time everyone on this board was in agreement? Good question...please remind me if I missed it

IMHO---and I repeat---MY humble opinion--I CAME TO PLAY--personally well or not--with a clan or without one (I just happen to belong to one--for how long-who knows??) All the noise being made about servers and lag and limitations of the same are beyond my knowledge.
Whatever is best for the game should be first--and that includes the players of that game. If no median point can be reached with regards to BOTH, then the game has lost--as well as the players of that game. So I think it is high time that the median point be seriously considered, as the game has been suffering--from lassitude, complacency, an overwhelming lack of unity and cooperation, and , it seems, it's own slow descent to a Death Wish.

[This message has been edited by Teulk (edited September 28, 2003).]

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coaxs
Member
posted September 28, 2003 10:14 PM            
Just wanted your input on the rotating unlimited-unranked and limited-ranked DDM schedule.

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Tread Marks Ladders

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Teulk
Member
posted September 28, 2003 10:34 PM            
see above...was probably hip deep in the keyboard while you wrote yours in

And I guess I forgot to mention this--

I like to play--win or lose

I think what needs to be considered here is the ultimate goal of the game. There are those who insist to be included in the posted rankings that define how the game should and can be played. I have absolutely no problem with that. For those that are skilled enough to include themselves on that list, they deserve a special time/place to show their wares. In all fairness, ranked ANYTHING should be on/at a pre-determined date and server. Obviously, and we've seen this already, the time/date is never satisfactory to all.

HOWEVER...AND MORE PERSONALLY

Anything that happens on a Sunday--and remember--THIS THE "MORE PERSONALLY" part--is a 50/50 deal with me (and more likely 20/80). Like Sue, I work 2 Sundays out of four, and, unlike Sue, I can't "switch" to make these events. SO I PLAY WHEN I CAN, IF I CAN. Regardless of "ranked/unranked" , "limited/unlimited".

[This message has been edited by Teulk (edited September 28, 2003).]

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Irascible
Member
posted September 28, 2003 10:39 PM            
Coax,
What about your solution as it applied to DDMs? Start a clan war skill ladder. Just a thought. Though keep in mind you'll have to crunch the stats or elicit the help of someone.

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coaxs
Member
posted September 28, 2003 11:25 PM            
But, does that address people that want to play clan wars but still can't because of limits?

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Tread Marks Ladders

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Teulk
Member
posted September 28, 2003 11:50 PM            
If the clan has more than the limited number of players, that is a clan decision. Professional sports teams dress more players than they ever field--and who gets to play? The players who make the cut.
If the clans want to "pick" their players, then that should be the way it is done-within the clan. What is the purpose of having a clan, if not to make it stronger? In this scenario, players would have to vie for their positions in the CW by "proving" themselves against their own. Wasn't there ever a time (and is there still) when clan memebers practiced with each other?
And if it comes to it, and certain clan members feel that they never get to play, well, it's time to set out and form their own clan.
Theoretically (right), this would lead to more clans, and more of a purpose to improve one's game. This may also lead people to recruit from "without", so that they can team with players they know, or intriduce others to the game, whom they think would be an asset to their team.
This would, hopefully, boil over to the unranked and ranked individual DDM's, and, hopefully again, increase the number of "qualifiable" players.

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coaxs
Member
posted September 29, 2003 01:57 AM            
There is no solution.

[This message has been edited by coaxs (edited September 29, 2003).]

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=DNX= Matrix
Member
posted September 29, 2003 08:18 AM            
Yes there is - a series of clan vs clan matches over the entire weekend, each one knocking the other out for pure frags until there is one victor

Also look at it this way - by cycling the types of match, you can bring out the players who dont normally do ddm's. for extreme variety, run the domination maps from my Anarchy pack in a proper team vs team environment with 5 on each side or more - NOW THATS ENTERTAINMENT lol...

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