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Author Topic:   Ranked DDM...let the stock maps rule
666
Member
posted September 01, 2003 11:09 PM            
Well, I have seen the light after talking to Ras on the phone. Let the Ranked DDM be stock maps. After all, we do want people to join and not have to download. Also...well...the clan maps are designed for a larger crowd. So, until the larger crowd come, we will use the stock maps. Let's go with the one's that make sense and players tend to like...and have enough spawn points:
Bull
Black Mesa
Hell Crossing
Mosquito
Pinnacle
Banks
Headlands
Not the Goat
Scarab

All feed back is appreciated.

Sorry about the late post...video card died on Saturday...on my son's computer now....LOL

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Race Hard...Race Fair...See You at the Race Line


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Blue n Gold Sue
Member
posted September 02, 2003 02:09 AM            
What is the definition of "a large group"? What if the stock maps are started with, but an unexpected turn out of 20 people arrive and spawn fragging rules? I also had a long talk with Ras about this. I did mention that one CAN get into a circular bit of action whereby one spawns, is fragged before one hits the ground, spawns again, fragged again, spawn again, fragged again. The stock maps GREATLY enhance the better player's advantage.
The clan maps take away most of that advantage. Ras's point was to INCREASE ENCOUNTERS, but they DO have to be real encounters, not spawn frags IMHO. He did get me to agree that the bumpy maps do decrease encounters and I agreed that mano-a-mano fighting is the test of skill in TM (not to anger campers, but camping will not get you the rate of kills that one on one does - in most cases).
I did agree that using the "faster" clan maps was a good idea, but I would have a hard time agreeing to the stock maps.
Ras also agreed that what ever map is used, the better players always come to the top, it is just a point of contention that there should ba a way to minimize the luck and maximize the skill in each DDM so that the top players are there due to their skill, not their luck.
Having the clan maps DOES make the game more enjoyable to the middle of the road player as it does eliminate much of that spawn fragging problem. I am not at the top of the skill ladder and I don't think I have the desire to do what it takes to get to the top, so what I say is only important for the *enjoyment* of the gaming experience.

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Blue n Gold Sue
Member
posted September 02, 2003 02:13 AM            
Need I also remind people that about 1/4th of the spawn points on a stock map are NOT associated with a weapon? All spawn points on a clan map do have weapons associated with them.

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CyberCannon
Member
posted September 02, 2003 02:32 AM            
quote:
Need I also remind people that about 1/4th of the spawn points on a stock map are NOT associated with a weapon? All spawn points on a clan map do have weapons associated with them.

I hate it when I spawn and end up getting killed before I even have a chance to get a weapon.

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May God hold you in the palm of His hand.

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coaxs
Member
posted September 02, 2003 02:47 AM            
Yes i agree, not enjoyable at all.

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Tread Marks Ladders

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Irascible
Member
posted September 02, 2003 02:51 AM            
We all seem to be motivated by personal interest. There's nothing wrong with that in and of itself and I admit to it freely. But it shouldn't be about what Sue, 666, Cyber or Ras wants. It should be about what makes sense.

If you want the long version, go to THIS thread and look at my long middle post. But instead of giving you that again, I'll illustrate by example: If more "enjoyment" for the less skilled is the goal in a ranked game, why not reintroduce the shadow? It's certainly "fun". Of course, the reason for removing the shadow is obvious. It would give the win to the lucky. To one extent or another, 666 and Sue have agreed that clan maps and slow maps enhance the luck factor. And Coax was the one who suggested stock maps for the current low attendance games. If it's a "ranked competition" then a mod which enhances luck should not be used.

If extra fun is what you want, have more fun DDMs. But it seems to me to be a contradiction in terms to argue for more fun for those not in the running and less skill for those that are in the running in something that is ranked. You think the increase in spawn frags is no fun? I think losing a game because I spawned in an tankless no man’s land a dozen times on a clan map is equally un-fun. Have more fun DDMs and less ranked ones! Please! Then you can go crazy without hearing my incessant debating.

[This message has been edited by Irascible (edited September 02, 2003).]

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666
Member
posted September 02, 2003 12:06 PM            
Where did I put that lid for the can of worms that I just opened? I know it is somewhere!

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Rex R
Member
posted September 02, 2003 12:16 PM            
somewhere in africa, along side pandoras box mayhap

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Blue n Gold Sue
Member
posted September 02, 2003 12:16 PM            
Hmm, I seem to think it takes NO SKILL WHATSOEVER to get a spawn frag. I wouldn't want MY high ranking to be based on spawn frags. Seems like that would be sort of "less skilled" don't you?

Ras, you might not realize it, but there ARE distant spawn points on even the stock maps. It may be that you just aren't spawning much in the first place that you don’t' notice it. I COUNT ON IT (to be spawned away from the action) so that I CAN be part of the game.

I readily agree that it would be fine to use "select" clan maps for ranked DDMs.
If stock maps are used and I end up in the spawn fragging hell I used to be in, I won't play the ranked DDM's (not said as a threat, just a fact) because it is NOT fun and surely no test of my skill to be caught in that spawn/frag/spawn cycle. Is being on the top of the ladder for ranked DDMs about being the best when the MOST PEOPLE can play or is it about stomping over as many people as possible in order to get and maintain that win?

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666
Member
posted September 02, 2003 12:22 PM            
On the serious side… I was thinking that we should go with the stock maps until the attendance is up in the high teens. I would also like to see new players attend. Having to download additional mods inhibits some from coming.

OR

We could just use the clan versions of the maps listed in the 1st post. The stock maps like Bull, Headlands, Not the Goat, Banks, and Scarab all have spawn points that are out in on the maps edge. Therefore spawning from the action is the same for these maps, though not as often as the clan maps. These maps are also have smooth terrain, which will allow you to get back into the action quicker. As mentioned, players will have spawn points that don't have weapon points, thus scrambling for a weapon will be necessary.

Many points for either side. I could go either way on this issue.

The main issue was that there were maps in the ranked DDM that not all liked and I was forcing it on the community.

Maybe the best solution would be to use the nine in the 1st post. Whether they are clan or stock, they have many spawn points for a DDM in the teens.

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Race Hard...Race Fair...See You at the Race Line


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Irascible
Member
posted September 02, 2003 02:21 PM            
Thank you Sue for implying my ranking is enhanced by the spawn frag. Given that the last bunch of ranked games have been clan maps and that the spawn frag is supposedly reduced by such maps; and given that the results of those games have deviated little from when they were stock - that's obviously not the case. And while I'm giving thanks, thanks for implying that I'm some low character jerk looking out for number one. I made very clear arguments about how maps enhance or decrease skill's role. I even got some agreement on that issue. So I asked if a ranked (not fun) event should enhance skill or fun. And I asked why not more fun DDMs. But nooo... those two highly relevant questions get no answer. Instead, it's "Spawn fragging sucks! And you want to stomp people!". OK. So be it.

But those unanswered and good points remain: In an event that is advertised as a test of skill, skill should be priority. To deviate from stock in such events has always required a good reason in the past. Extra fun doesn't seem to be one. In a fun event, fun should be the priority. So have more friggin fun DDMs and less ranked!

Incidentally, a spawn point in and of itself it NOT distant. What makes it distant is when there are so many spawn points that the FEW people that show all spawn away from each other. THAT's what makes it distant, the distance between tanks. When there's less spawn points people naturally tend to spawn nearer to each other.

So we are talking degrees here. On the one end is stock with a ton of players. Yes, on a fast map that's spawn frag hell and I don't endorse that. On the other end is clan with few players. On a slow map like high plateau, that's driving half the game to find a target hell (and incidentally, that's camper's heaven). And I mean it IS hell for me and I HATE it. Why do think I make as much fuss as you, if not more? YOU may enjoy the drive and resulting wasted time while you‘re equally skilled opponent racks up the frags because he got lucky and didn‘t have to drive. But I do not. When there's only 10 players, a stock map is a must.

So where to draw the line and how to predict the turnout? We probably won't agree on the line. Turnout has been low to DDMs lately and will probably continue. This is a dead and dying game. It doesn't appear that the recent return to the store shelves has boosted it much. Anyway, I defy you to prove to me that in the maps listed at the top in a DDM with around 10 players that it's spawn frag hell. Have David do his now famous testing on a stock map listed above with 10 total players. I'll bet you 5 PayPal dollars that it isn't an issue in such a scenario. No, getting spawn fragged a couple times during a 20 minute game isn't hell. With 10 players, that's all it would probably be. But this is obviously about what we want and not logic, so forget it.

Since you've "readily agreed" to the idea, since 666 is fine with it and since no one else cares much, the clan version of the maps listed above appears to be our compromise. Though do the testing as mentioned above and it will probably show no need for this compromise. Oh… sorry. This about what we want, I made no sense in what my points about what should be, and I'm a spawn frag master looking to crush the fun out of the game - so nevermind. Anyway, it will still be spawn far away hell for me. But that will be alleviated somewhat by the faster drive time that David mentioned. But IF (there’s no need to say this since 666 said he wouldn't, but since you made your threat that isn’t a threat so will I :P) we go back to those piece of crap maps that have been used in the past bunch of ranked events, then I won't show. That's not a threat either. In fact, given that most don't want me there anyway it's probably an enticing promise.

Am I experiencing one of those hell hath no fury moments?

[This message has been edited by Irascible (edited September 02, 2003).]

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666
Member
posted September 02, 2003 03:48 PM            
I have noticed that when you get excited you write alot.

Just a thought...

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666
Member
posted September 02, 2003 04:12 PM            
Well you all have good points.

I think it is down to two points:

Spawning far from the action makes it hard to compete when using the clan maps.

Spawning without a weapon makes you fraggable with the stock maps.

From what I remember of the nine stock maps listed, spawn fragging should not be a problem on those stock maps because there are ample weapon points. I have a good ideal since I race them often.

In addition, spawning far from the action should not be a problem with the clan maps since the maps selected have smooth terrain but are not flat. It is probably more a problem that you have fragged everyone nearby, you are injured, and it takes longer to get to the next location to frag others.

It comes down to what is the lesser ill that people are willing to live with.

Again, I think it was mainly my fault for making the community use maps that they did not like. Sorry about that.

Let focus on the 2 issues, spawning far away (clan) or spawning without a weapon (stock), and see which one is more important.

[This message has been edited by 666 (edited September 02, 2003).]

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=DNX= Matrix
Member
posted September 02, 2003 04:13 PM            
*** S L A P ***

Is it just me .... or is he, *tetchy* tonight...... I reccomend some milk and bicarb of soda :☺

Expects response........

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Blue n Gold Sue
Member
posted September 02, 2003 04:23 PM            
Irascible, my apologies if you thought that I accused you of getting to the top of the ladder by spawn fragging.
What I was trying to make a point of is that spawn fragging doesn't measure skill and SKILL is what you have been ranting about.
Skill as measured by # of encounters.
Spawn fragging does not measure skill and ISN'T a valid encounter.
Clan maps decrease spawn frags
Stock maps increase spawn frags.
It seems like we are changing so many things at one time. As a scientist, I *know* that you can only test ONE VARIABLE at a time.
Do we change the type of map, the style of map, the number of ranked DDM's...
Which variable is MOST important?
Sounds like there are several things on the table:
  • frequency of DDMs. I have no problem with making them once a month. What should it be? 1st, 2nd,or 3rd sunday of the month? Maybe the months with 5 sundays.. then it can be on that 5th Sunday so it can be a truely unique event? The 4th Sunday is reserved for the CLAN BATTLE already.
  • More fun DDMs. Sure, we can do that. NP.
  • Type of map used: Fast or slow? Clan vs Stock? We already can't control how many people show up. Why not prepare for the larger crowd and be happy when they show- but at least we are prepared if we use a clan map. I am ALL FOR using *select* maps. Pick what you want. That part doesnt 'matter to me
    You already got me to agree that the "faster maps" would be better for ranked DDM's (in an ICQ chat for those of you following the discussion here). Ras, you readily agree that the results ARE similar regardless of whether the clan or the stock maps are used. SO what is the big deal??

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  • Irascible
    Member
    posted September 02, 2003 05:03 PM            
    No need to respond to irrelevant points or people Matey. :P

    I didn't think you accused me of it Sue or meant to. But the wording was there for the implication to be taken. So I responded to it. The spawn frag is no measure of skill, agreed. Clan maps can decrease the spawn frag, agreed. Clan maps can decrease the encounter, agreed too. Where's the line between affecting encounters too much or increasing spawn frags too much? That's the question. That's the logic to be used IMO. With 10 people at a DDM, that line clearly favors the stock map IMO.

    Variables:
    Yes, only one variable is easily proven at a time. But we are not debating the truth of multiple variables. We are debating clan maps vs stock. Frequency is not a variable in determining the type of map. It's simply an alternative to ranked games since your focus is having fun. However it happened (and thank God for it), we've agreed on fast maps. People generally like them the most and 666 and you say ok to them. That variable has been removed. So we're left with the one variable that we already have a compromise for: FAST, popular clan maps. That leaves no variables to worry about.

    Yeah, the results are similar. But they are not the same. I am NOT a LOT better than a lot of people. My edge is small and sometimes nonexistent. So the big deal is in the small difference. In a game with Supe, Max, 666, Harm, Ni, and Par all you need is a small difference to swing the results. And the big deal is also in the game play. The quality of play IS different on slow clan maps versus fast stock ones - way different. You asking me as you have would be like me asking you, "What's the big deal Sue? Either way you get pasted.". But I wouldn't ask that.

    [This message has been edited by Irascible (edited September 02, 2003).]

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    Irascible
    Member
    posted September 02, 2003 05:08 PM            
    "Again, I think it was mainly my fault for making the community use maps that they did not like. Sorry about that.
    "

    Amen brother. Tell it!

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    coaxs
    Member
    posted September 02, 2003 06:32 PM            
    I vote for stock maps for less than 15 people. Clan maps for more than 15. This could be determined by how many people showed up the week before.

    I personally love the clan maps they do a lot but most importantly take out spawn fragging, if the crowd isn't big enough for that to be an issue, than we should just use stock anyways.

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    Tread Marks Ladders

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    =DNX= Matrix
    Member
    posted September 02, 2003 07:05 PM            
    Im irrelevant . I am Borg ......

    actually.... irrelevant .... i can prolly do that with innards of lavender

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    Blue n Gold Sue
    Member
    posted September 02, 2003 09:01 PM            
    David and I were having the discussion about basing the use of clan maps vs stock maps on the attendance of the previous week's matches. I don't think that would fly particularly well. For starters, each week something different is offered, so a fun DDM would have a different draw than a ranked DDM, and that would have a different draw from a clan battle.
    You are right, it IS hard to predict. Should we start a thread, post here if you are going to attend the Sunday DDM so we can get a head count in advance?

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    coaxs
    Member
    posted September 02, 2003 09:05 PM            
    That would be pointless, trust me I know that from experience.

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    Tread Marks Ladders

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    666
    Member
    posted September 03, 2003 12:16 AM            
    Below is a chart I did of the 9 stock maps listed in the 1st post. The 1st value in the {} is the number of spawn points via TMapper. The number in the [] is the number of weapon point in the race which corresponds to the number of weapons for a DM. The % is the chance that you will spawn without a weapon. Note that spawn is random as per LDA Jim.

    Map-{spawn points}_[weapon points] _%chance of spawn w/o a weapon
    =====================================================
    Bank-{28}_[18]_36%
    Bull-{34}_[18]_44%
    Black Mesa-{25}_[19]_24%
    Headland-{37}_[24]_35%
    Hellcrossing-{26}_[21]_19%
    Mosquito-{21}_[15]_28%
    Pinnacle-{19}_[16]_15%
    Not the Goat-{32}_[20]_38%
    Scarab-{27}_[16]_33%

    YIKES! I was in shock when I did finally look at the map’s spawn points. The average of all the maps is a little over 25%. Yes, there is a 25% on these maps that you will spawn without a weapon.

    Then look at the number of weapon spawn points, in the []. You want a ratio of 1.5 weapon points to 1 player to ensure that spawn fragging is not predominant. All the maps pass the ratio for 10 players, some just barely. The stock maps are only good for 12-13 players. Therefore I do not think spawn fragging is the problem with the current attendance of players in the ranked DDM.

    Again, as stated in the above post the 2 main problems to focus on are:

    Spawn away from the action with the clan maps

    Or

    Spawning without a weapon with the stock maps.

    Well, I have changed my vote. I want the clan maps…spawning without a weapon is greater evil than having to travel. At least with the clan maps I can have a pick of the weapon while traveling to the action.


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    Race Hard...Race Fair...See You at the Race Line


    [This message has been edited by 666 (edited September 03, 2003).]

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    coaxs
    Member
    posted September 03, 2003 12:22 AM            
    Can we change all the spawn points too weapon points too, and try that?

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    Tread Marks Ladders

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    666
    Member
    posted September 03, 2003 12:29 AM            
    I do not know that...but I do not think so. Both the server and user need the same map. You would have to save the maps as different map then the stock maps. Therefore I do not think that it would work.

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    Blue n Gold Sue
    Member
    posted September 03, 2003 12:33 AM            
    I had a long chat with Ras on ICQ. We agreed on many things
    We agreed that the ranked DDMs be clan maps, but limited to the fast group:
  • Bull
  • Black Mesa
  • Hell Crossing
  • Mosquito
  • Pinnacle
  • Banks
  • Headlands
  • Not the Goat
  • Scarab

    We also agreed that this would be reevaluated, if it was felt to be needed, at the end of the year.

    While the frequency of ranked DDMs and Clan battles may still be open to debate, what stands now (ranked on 1st and 3rd Sundays, Fun on 2nd sunday, Clan Battle on 4th sunday, and another fun DDM if there is a 5th Sunday to a month)is what the default shall be.

    Also, given that we know that having clans vote on things can be problematic, and since there seems to be some agreement that the above listed maps are the "good maps" for ranked events, can we also agree that we use this map list for clan wars?

    Coax/Sailor/SuperUnknown, Ras and I agree that this should be locked, as an agreement among the interested parties has been made.

    IP:

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