This topic is 2 pages long:   1  2  |
Author Topic:   Killer and other tech heads: Why the discrepancy in the stats?
Irascible
Member
posted August 25, 2003 12:43 AM            
The pic speaks for itself. Game one, two and three are shown in order with Killer's stats superimposed. Killer's site shows the exact same deaths but more frags than my own pics. This isn't the first time I've seen frags being missed. A week or so ago I fragged four AIs in rapid succession. But the frag total showed only 3. I pulled the chat screen up in time to verify the mistake. Que es el dealio?

IP:

Blue n Gold Sue
Member
posted August 25, 2003 01:36 AM            
Well here is not frags being MISSED but added
Curious as to the reason though

IP:

=DNX= Matrix
Member
posted August 25, 2003 05:28 AM            
I noticed this effect too on a 2 vs 2 a few weeks back - i just figured my install had screwed up.

IP:

KiLlEr
Member
posted August 25, 2003 09:19 AM            
a few possibilities:

1) LogScan dosn't take into account team fragging. It just counts it as a frag where as TM doesnot. This is not a problem with team oriented games as it balances out in the end since your team has a frag and a death recorded against it.

2) If you disconnect and reconnect, logscan does not zero out your frags/deaths.

3) If 2 players use the same name, logscan can't differentiate between the 2 as TM does.

and the most annoying issue of Sunday: Not only did I get feeds from all the servers, I had alot of visitors to my site in the same timeslot which maxed out the maximum number of connections to my website. :/

Next time we need to have all the other servers shutdown (or at least not send logscan uploads). Maybe even lockdown my website for the duration of the game.

Incidentally, The LDA_DDM server was averaging an upload every 20 seconds for the stat minded.

IP:

-DNX-Ni
Member
posted August 25, 2003 12:00 PM            
is it something to do with the Skill formula, as it's 100*deaths/1 + raw frags?

IP:

KiLlEr
Member
posted August 25, 2003 12:36 PM            
Nope. The skill is calculated from the Raw values, not the otherway around.

IP:

KiLlEr
Member
posted August 25, 2003 12:42 PM            
Another possibility, although very rare, is that the frag was reported twice. This happens alot on the Armageddon server, but I haven't seen it happen anywhere else as often.

IP:

Irascible
Member
posted August 25, 2003 12:54 PM            
It's definitely an underreporting problem, not over. Like I said, I saw absolute proof against some AIs. I definitely fragged 4 AIs at the beginning of a game and only got 3 credited. One of those AIs was not on my team and I didn't frag myself in the process.

IP:

KiLlEr
Member
posted August 25, 2003 02:03 PM            
So you mean that TM itself is not keeping track of the frags?

From the overlay above I see that LogScan has more frags than what TM says, which would mean over-reporting.

But TM will penalize you a frag if you wipe out a team member. That's something that logscan can't do.

for example:

- You have 3 frags TM shows 3 Frags, LogScan will show 3 frags.

- You frag a team mate, TM will show 2 frags (1 frag penalty), LogScan now shows 4 frags, and the team member gets 1 death

IP:

Irascible
Member
posted August 25, 2003 02:22 PM            
Yeah, that's what I believe is happening. Though what you describe may very well account for the discrepancies of the clan DDM that I show the pic of. But nevertheless, I have seen underreporting of frags on several occasions. By that I mean locally. Obviosly I have no idea what other players see. On more than once occasion I have brought up the chat screen with the tab button at near the beginning of a game to see more frags there (there easy to spot with the color scheme) than reported on the score board. It doesn't happen often. But it's happened enough that I know it's real.

IP:

coaxs
Member
posted August 25, 2003 02:24 PM            
Ras, Your frags got over counted cause you team fragged. And if you kill AIs to quickly logscan can't keep up whic happens on the armageddon server.

------------------
Tread Marks Ladders

IP:

Irascible
Member
posted August 25, 2003 02:25 PM            
That's cool Coax. But that doesn't explain the incidents that have happened locally on more than one occasion. It appears to have happened to Matrix too.

Incidentally, one reason I may notice this more than some is my play style. My brother can tell you that I hit tab several times a minute in some cases - and ALWAYS after getting fragged. I've been doing that nearly as long as I've been playing. So I see the extended version of the chat screen quite often.

[This message has been edited by Irascible (edited August 25, 2003).]

IP:

coaxs
Member
posted August 25, 2003 02:28 PM            
Your saying TM has the problem?

------------------
Tread Marks Ladders

IP:

Irascible
Member
posted August 25, 2003 02:29 PM            
Y

E

S

That's my theory anyway. I'll get a screen shot of it someday and show you. I got one about a week ago but forgot to save it.

IP:

666
Member
posted August 25, 2003 02:34 PM            
If you nuke yourself and another you get penalize a frag and it does not show up. Did that happen?

IP:

-DNX-Ni
Member
posted August 25, 2003 02:48 PM            
What about multiple kills too? ie 5 peple in the middle of a nuke?

IP:

Blue n Gold Sue
Member
posted August 25, 2003 02:54 PM            
And what about this multiple post problem? Is that TM's fault, too

IP:

Irascible
Member
posted August 25, 2003 03:08 PM            
OK, this is the last friggin time I'm going to explain this!!! :P

Killer's explanation may very well explain the pic at the top. OK? OK.

BUT! In a leisure game not so long ago and on several occasions before that:
1) At the beginning of a game I frag (for example) three AIs in a hurry.
1a) None of those AIs are on my team.
1b) I do not frag myself in the process.
2) I pull up the extended chat screen by hitting tab as I do incessantly throughout the game.
3) I see three frag messages for those AIs. They are easy to see because the color is different from other messages.
4) I look at the scoreboard total and it shows only two frags.
4b) I wait ten seconds thinking that maybe some update has to go to the server before I see the third frag. But it never shows up on the score board.
5) Therefore, one frag due me has been lost.

I thought maybe the pic above was the same phenomenon. Maybe it is, maybe not. But even if it isn't, what I described has happened. I'm only curious as to the explanation. I don't really care that much and I'm sorry I asked!!! With or without the occasional lost frag, I won't have any troubles. And Devil, please read AND understand before you ask questions about that which you read!!!

BTW, Killer:
From what you said in number one above, if we are to be truly accurate in calculating the various ladders then we need to stick to screen shots and not your stats. Yes?

[This message has been edited by Irascible (edited August 25, 2003).]

IP:

KiLlEr
Member
posted August 25, 2003 03:17 PM            
Multiple posts are filtered by LogScan as each item it picks up from the log is timestamped. You can post it twice, thrice, or 20 times and it only counts it once.

Armageddon is an extream example of under reporting. There is sooo many frags being dumped out into the log file that you get into a situation where LogScan and TM are fighting for access to the logfile. LogScan will simply skip the file if TM has a lock on it, but I donot know if TM does the same. Chances are that TM will drop the data if it can't write to the log file. But this is rare on a normal server. It can happen though, but not at a rate to cause problems with reporting. Armageddon however pumps out lots of frags, so chances are much greater that frags get droped. hey, an average player can score 15-20 frags per minute on that server. Can you say overload?

Multiple kills are not a problem, unless you repetedly frag 15 tanks in a short period of time.

IP:

KiLlEr
Member
posted August 25, 2003 03:30 PM            
hehe Simultanious posts.

The above problem with the penalty only affects Team Games, but this balances out in the end as the frags for one team member is negated by a death of another team member. I donot believe in penalizing a pler for accidentally fragging a teammate. Of course, if a player is continuosuly fragging his team members, he should be dropped from the competition.

Unlike the problem your experiencing locally, LogScan has the advantage that it is running on the server itself so long as TM puts the frag out into the log file, it will be captured by LogScan. If the above is a large enough of a problem, I can write code to attempt to emulate the TM behavior. I just don't think it is a fair behavior, and since this is a team battle, team fragging won't get you anywhere. The teams's adjusted frags will remain the same no matter how often you team frag.

And if your complete paranoid we can always use both screen shots and the stats page. But there are 3 major problems with the screen grab:

1) If a player gets bumped off, he/she looses everything.
2) If a player joins late, the deaths column only contains the deaths that occured since he/she joined.
3) Since frags are kept track on the server, it may not update on the players machine in time (this is your TAB problem). I think TM does a final tally of frags and sends them to the client at the end of a round, but not necessarily during the round.

So, which do you think is more accurate?

[This message has been edited by KiLlEr (edited August 25, 2003).]

IP:

Irascible
Member
posted August 25, 2003 03:46 PM            
Points one and two are taken care of if the person getting the screenies is there the whole time. If what you say in three is true, then that takes care of points one and two also. Since you have verified that the log will report team frags as a real frag, then based on what's been said I honestly think pics are best.

BTW, thanks for point 3. That probably answers the question I had to begin with.

IP:

KiLlEr
Member
posted August 25, 2003 03:54 PM            
If that is the case, and everyone is in agreement, then I'll remove LogScan from the LDA server since it is not needed. I'll just replace it with a simple program to switch the servers.

IP:

Irascible
Member
posted August 25, 2003 04:06 PM            
Now don't go there. That's just my opinion and everyone will NOT be in agreement. And besides, all I'm saying is that pics should be used for the ladders. I wasn't suggesting taking logscan away. I like logscan a whole lot. It's fun to check who fragged who and so on. And it WILL be useful for adding the stats of people that accidentally drop out. My particular area of interest is ladders. As you know, I help Coax keep the three on his site current. That's all I was getting at. The last thing I want is to be labeled anti-logscan.

[This message has been edited by Irascible (edited August 25, 2003).]

IP:

KiLlEr
Member
posted August 25, 2003 04:31 PM            
I'm not labeling anyone anything.

As I said above I can make logscan act the same as TM. At the time I built it, I didn't like the fact that a team gets a penalty if one member accidentally offed a fellow member. In the end, it all comes out in the wash because as a team they got a frag *AND* a death, so the result is 0.

I can add a check to see if the 2 are on the same team and subtract an additional frag, it isn't a problem as I have the all the data necessary to do it. The frag and death posts to logscan have both player names listed. So all I would have to do is to check to see if the 2 are on the same team when I get a frag post. I can even get real fancy and add a penalty column and just add one to there, and modify the adjusted frags to be Frags - (Deaths + Suicides + Penalties)

If the log scanning is not going to be used, then logscan should be removed to free up more bandwidth. Since if that feature is not used, then why waste that extra bandwidth?Thats all I ment with that.

[This message has been edited by KiLlEr (edited August 25, 2003).]

IP:

Irascible
Member
posted August 25, 2003 04:37 PM            
I'm sort of getting lost in the details. The bottom line in what I'm concerned about (ladder accuracy) is that the stats we use remain consistent with the past. The way logscan was/is setup appears to allow for extra frags to be reported that TM doesn't.
That could skew a close ranked DDM. If you can set it up (as you have said) so that scores totally emulate TM's way of tallying them, then that would be awesome and useful for ladder computation.

IP:

This topic is 2 pages long:   1  2