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Author Topic:   You better run because they're coming for you!
Irascible
Member
posted June 25, 2003 08:22 PM            
HA!

Corporate lawyers and their bourgeoisie masters are daring to use the law to claim what is legally theirs. The dastards!

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KONG
Member
posted June 25, 2003 09:18 PM            
Those damned bloodsucking lawyers! And those greedy corporations, there should be a law against it I tells ya!

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Qersys

Ut sementem feceris ita metes


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Sailor
Administrator
posted June 25, 2003 09:26 PM            
The industry executives should be held to public scrutiny about their financial books (they suck the artists dry - if possible) and then have a thorough public disclosure of their incomes and let's see who wants to hide what? A CD is worth about $5.00 with the songs on it and that is a reasonable profit for all concerned.

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May you always have a following Sea a cool breeze at your back and the comfort of those you hold nearest to your heart.
Sailor's Home Port


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666
Member
posted June 26, 2003 12:10 AM            
Well, here's my problem. I have already bought the LP and they made their profit then. I would gladly by the LP in a cd format if it went for a $1. Yes, a buck is what Dvorak said that they should sell. I would buy all my LP's again in cd. In addition, the record company could again make profit because people would be buying them again in large volume.

Somehow, I feel that I am being ripped off because they are charge the price of a newly released cd for a record that is 20 years old.

Low and behold, the record companies will start a new format for people to buy. Remember, the 8 track and cassettes tapes.

People are tired of the manipulative practices of the music industry.

So, I ask, how long will it take before the record companies wake up and realize that their old world is gone? Not long. A great example is the new apple music store where you can buy a song for $1 online and do whatever you want with it. The NPR interview stated that within a few years and some competition the price per song will go down to $0.50 a song. Then I will start once again buy the songs I want to make my own mix.

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Irascible
Member
posted June 26, 2003 01:55 AM            
" reasonable profit "
The market must decide that. Otherwise you're talking about price controls and just the opposite of what you're looking for.

" a buck is what Dvorak said that they should sell "
And how do we implement such opinions? How does the intrepid columist think that should be made to happen? Make the market more free and it will happen. As you pointed out already, it IS starting to happen. The internet is making the market more free. And other than the supposed fact that Al Gore invented it, the government had nothing to do with it. (Well, actually DARPA had everything to do with it. But that's a part of the evil military/government complex. So we won't go there. )

The problem I have with most opinions about prices that stem from "I'm being ripped off." is how most of those people would solve the problem. Kong's sarcastic comment is other's real solution: "There ought to be a law!". Government regs always mean trouble.

Remember when the best price you could get for a cross country flight was $800? Remember when long distance at 25 cents a minute was the going rate? The government got out of the way of both those industries and prices plummeted. Yes, it was messy. But since when has anyone cared about corporate welfare? Then end result was cross country flights at less than half what they use to cost and, in some cases, practially free long distance.

So in all the ranting, consider your solutions carefully. Of course, I know what your solution is Devil. It's a off colored market of sorts...

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wolfman
Member
posted June 26, 2003 07:17 AM            
Or you can think of it as a giant radio station that you are taping for your own personal enjoyment. Way back when this was fine as long as you did not make tapes to sell to other people. Then we have VCR's to tape what we watch or care to watch later - Again fine as long as it is for personal use only. Just some thoughts. JT

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=DNX= Matrix
Member
posted June 26, 2003 07:34 AM            
To prosecute, the company must be able to prove without a shadow of a doubt that your actions have in some way caused them a financial loss.

A valid way around it is "i wanted to demo the music before i bought the cd"

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Irascible
Member
posted June 26, 2003 11:04 AM            
Yeah, that will work. "Officer, I swiped that DVD from Blockbuster because I wanted to demo it." Legally there's no real distinction in swiping a DVD or downloading it illegally. Either way you've stolen copywrited material. It's only the ease and anonimity of the download that makes it different. But boy does that get people's dander up. Most people are prideful enough that the suggestion they're a thief gets them into all sorts of logical contradictions in attempting to justify it. Que sera sera.

Wolf, you're talking about commercial broadcast. Since commercial broadcasts have commercials, the use of the song has been paid for. As you mentioned, law explicitly permits personal use of recorded public broadcasts. Kaaza isn't exactly a commercial broadcast. Perhaps if they told the judge they were watching commercials on TV while they downloaded?

[This message has been edited by Irascible (edited June 26, 2003).]

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Bonzo Dog
Member
posted June 26, 2003 12:02 PM            
I have been buying lps and cds in the UK for 30 yrs at extortionate prices on average about 14 which is about $25 a throw. Now i get them for nothing at Kazaa and i`m laughing all the way to the bank. I been ripped off for long enough if thats stealing then so is charging me over inflated prices, an eye for an eye. If it effects any artists then i think it only effects the ones with no talent like the crap boy bands we have here at the moment, and good ridance to bad rubbish. Whoever heard of a band with five vocalists, that aint no band.

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=DNX= Matrix
Member
posted June 26, 2003 12:23 PM            
Im with Bonzo... ive a massive CD collection, but i only ever listen to mp3's - its more convenient to click an icon on desktop than to go rummaging around a picle of cd's for one song, ambling over to the cd player and hitting the button only to have to do it all over again when the cd finishes.... ok its lazy, but a pc will hold days worth of continuous songs in a playlist.. im for kazza and a bit of payback

btw: i recently saw a bit of american tv (south park) off the net, you guys really get all those adverts in the corners all the time, logo's at the top and adverts every 5 minutes !!! id tell em where to shove it - i wouldnt wanna pay for watching adverts ! I admit its slowly happening here with logos n stuff but its still al lot better than what i see of american tv.

And doing away with the ad block (the still image of the show ur watching inbetween commercials) is cruel if ur taping it as it goes right on in and you miss dialogue.

All those channels and they still have to blast you out with ads of whats on next every 4 minutes.... tickertapes on the bottom of lottery numbers or breaking news go look at this channel instead - RUBBISH !

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Bonzo Dog
Member
posted June 26, 2003 02:01 PM            
Don`t forget the 90 tv licence fee we have to pay over here. We are the only country in Europe who have to pay it to. Maybe the only country in the world ? .

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Teulk
Member
posted June 26, 2003 02:52 PM            
I guess my kids should start looking for jobs, no??? Or get used to striped pajama's!!
I sure won't be paying for their collections!!

[This message has been edited by Teulk (edited June 26, 2003).]

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wolfman
Member
posted June 26, 2003 04:34 PM            
Ireland has the fee too - at least a guy I work with who was working there a few years told me so. Sounds like a real trip - not.
JT

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wolfman
Member
posted June 26, 2003 04:37 PM            
Yeah that's the ticket I was watching tv commercials and I read the ads all the time so yeahhhhhhhhhhh that's it - didn't know that counted. lol But if in the past I have heard the song and the accompanying ads therewith - does that count for future mp3 downloads?
Apple with their 1 dollar a song thing is going well - if the industry knocked it down to 50 cents for a perfect copy for personal use - alot of us would be frequent customers.

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coaxs
Member
posted June 26, 2003 05:27 PM            
One wonders how far Irascible's moral clarity extends. It is obvious to me, at least, that Kazaa is a form of stealing music from the music industry, I have no doubt about that. But is it wrong?

It was obviously wrong from the British prospective that the American colonies rebelled and shot at British troops. While this same occurrence is justified by the American side.

To put things in perspective, Ben Franklin said, "It is tyranny that causes revolution". Whether the revolution is justified or not tyranny will always cause revolution.

What Kazaa represents is a new type of revolution, a revolution of music lovers who are tired of being "ripped-off". If the tyrannical music industry had reasonable prices for music, there wouldn't be this huge storm of people downloading for free. I tend to believe that most people would do the right/moral/legal thing if prices were reasonable.

Whether Ras wants to join the rebellion and fight against the tyrannical distant empire or if he wants to remain a loyalist is his own decision that will be cemented with time.

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Tread Marks Ladders

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KONG
Member
posted June 26, 2003 08:05 PM            
quote:
What Kazaa represents is a new type of revolution

That's a good one Coax

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Irascible
Member
posted June 27, 2003 12:12 AM            
My moral clarity extends as far as it needs to. In other words, if it deserves thought then it should be given thought. Thought leads to evaluation. Evaluation leads to decision and moral clarity. The opposite would be an emotional response based one's own self-interest.

While I don't condone it, I am not angered by those who say, "It cost too much so I'm going to steal it.". Bonzo didn't say as much explicity, but it can be inferred. At least with that logic there IS moral clarity. It isn't a rationalization based on twisted logic. It's a simple statement of fact.

What bothers me is when one attempts to say that that the theft was morally right. It's clear that no one has a right to your property without your permission. If you write a song and choose to use a greedy corporation to distribute it, that is your right. If others don't like it, then they shouldn't buy it. To steal it would be no different than if a neighbor stole a car I was selling because he didn't like what I was asking for it. The only way to justify such things is to believe there is a God given right to take the hard work of others. Whether that be material items or intellectual property, it makes no difference. Both are the result of the labor of others.

And Coax, if and when the desire to steal the work of others is somehow magically made the equivalent political oppression... THEN we'll talk about your analogy to The Revolutionary War. One had to do with freedom to pursue one's own life, liberty and happiness. The other has to do with the (*cough*) the "freedom" to pursue the riches of others.

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coaxs
Member
posted June 27, 2003 12:15 AM            
tyranny is tyranny political or otherwise.

I'm not equating the revolution to music piracy. Just using it as an example of one form of tyranny. There are obviously distinct by degrees.

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Tread Marks Ladders

[This message has been edited by coaxs (edited June 27, 2003).]

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Irascible
Member
posted June 27, 2003 12:57 AM            
Math made easy by Coax:

(the sale of personal property at a price that displeases some) = (tyranny)

Wow. I hope you avoid certain yard sales. There's all sorts of tyranny going on there.

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coaxs
Member
posted June 27, 2003 04:57 AM            
I guess it all depends whether you consider the music industry's practices tyrannical or not.

[This message has been edited by coaxs (edited June 27, 2003).]

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Bonzo Dog
Member
posted June 30, 2003 11:36 AM            
When thou comest into the standing corn of thy neighbour, then thou mayest pluck the ears with thine hand, but thou shalt not move a sickle unto thy neighbour`s standing corn.
Deuteronomy 23:25 : )

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=DNX= Matrix
Member
posted June 30, 2003 12:16 PM            
Here within lies a soft drink, and lo it came to pass that the drink became known as RED BULL !

Manufacture cost inc can and liquid: 7p
Per can shipping to Distributor: 3p
Distributor sale to Retailer: 42p
Retailer Sale to Public: 1.30

So whos gettin ripped off

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corpse
Member
posted June 30, 2003 12:47 PM            
thats y i drink ROCKSTAR
(AKA NIGHT CREW DOPE)
same price as RED BULL,
but 2 x the size and buzz.

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GoldAnt_Number1
Member
posted July 01, 2003 12:57 PM            
mh, I guess I better go *permanently* handicap the kazaa on my sisters computer before she gets a nasty suprise haha

hm, I just recently read a book with a bunch of parables in it. And I thought this could somehow relate to an old old village. Where certain people were payed to carry buckets of water back from this lake a mile or so away for a penny a bucket. One of the two of these fellers, built a pipeline from the lake to the village. He put the other bucket carrier out of business...etc (and went off to build pipelines around the world, but thats not important to this...). His $ shot up and he had constant income from this pipe. So, would it be right for somebody else to take water from this pipe? just because theres no other way?, cause theres so much water anyways? Sort of a monoply this guys got there, but is it right, hrmph! You could say that the pipe represents the net and that the bucket carriers were the musicians (though I doubt some of them actually go through as much work as this guy who built the pipe did).

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wolfman
Member
posted July 01, 2003 10:47 PM            
Hiya
Back to the analogy to taping off of radio stations - have the music industry put out perfect copies with unremoveable commercial as part of the file. Just a thought lol
JT

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