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Author Topic:   First DMF Clan Council Meeting
=DNX= Matrix
Member
posted September 05, 2002 01:00 AM            
I suggest 8pm EST on Saturday 14th

- comments.. ?

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ģ 2002 /\/\∩ŢŔİX

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coaxs
Member
posted September 05, 2002 02:35 AM            
If it's 30mins later I can make it.

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=DNX= Matrix
Member
posted September 05, 2002 02:44 AM            
Ok 8:30 then..... anyone else ? - gotta make this as open to ppl as possible.

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kv
Member
posted September 05, 2002 06:36 AM            
I should be able to.

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=DNX= Matrix
Member
posted September 05, 2002 10:25 AM            
Cool - any offers for Chairperson ? if not ill assume first duty, but we should really be sharing this role, to be fair to all and avoid the look and effect of a dictatorship.

Minutes are kept by the chat facility of course so no need for a group secretary. Full disclose ppl so keep it clean full listings will be available on the dmf forums and available as a files txt archive on the meeting page for those who wish to keep track of events.

Currently were setting up vbullitin forums for dmf... but im new to cgi so bear with me - once its ready the ezboard ones will be closed, essentially closed already; but 1 or 2 ppl are using it... figures lol.

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Paranor
Member
posted September 05, 2002 01:41 PM            
I'm going to a bachelor party so I'm out. Ras - you in?

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Irascible
Member
posted September 08, 2002 05:33 AM            
I can probably make it. But, if you'll indulge me for a moment. Why are we doing this? I looked back and saw these explanations:

"Purpose of the delegates council is to organise clan events and iron out problems on a monthly basis - trying to tackle issues as they arise instead of worry about them once the top has blown off publicly."
I'm sure you noticed the incorrect British spelling of the word "organize". LOL!

"Topics to be hashed out finally:
Future clan war setups and rules will be hashed out.
Making sure each clan has a method for removing bad characters from their clan and some safeguards to keep them from coming in.
"

  1. Clan events are already organiZed. In fact, the only regular "clan event" that I can think of is the Clan War. The rules are long established and Par has made the (admittedly flexible) schedule. If there are to be new clan events, why would we limit the creative process to just the few that are a part of the council? And if existing clan event(s) are modified, see point four below.

  2. About the only problems that may need to be ironed out are what Coax mentioned above. But, if a clan council were to establish sweeping ground rules about membership then we'd be losing a major point to having a clan. That is, each clan SHOULD be different and have a distinct personality. If we begin to homogenize the clans in "new world order" fashion it would become very boring. A little disorder and disagreement is not necessarily an unhealthy thing. Not only that, I don't think we could create rules that would apply to all clans. Do you think Dreamer or KJ1 are going to be happy to hear that Aragon and I made some rules that they now have to follow? Not likely. As far as the clan war setup goes, see point four.

  3. How do we know what needs ironing until the wrinkle has occurred? The "public pop topping" of an issue is about the only way serious issues (what few there have been) reveal themselves. Would a clan council have prevented all the hoopla over Guido? It's not like he would of requested permission of the council to do his racist trash talking before he did it. The same goes for the clan membership issue. Before the subject "popped its top" it wouldn't have occurred to any clan leader, nor would that leader think they should even have to ask the clan council if its membership policies were OK.

  4. Do the clan leaders that aren't attending and the individual clan members even know that we intend to make decisions without their input? Or at the very least, one could argue that the amount of input from the community at large will definitely go down. When Par wanted to know how often to rank the DDMs he put up a poll. Though not too many actually voted, it left open the possibility for everyone to have input. Does the existence of the clan council mean that if that subject came up again that the council members would make the decision alone?

Please understand that I'm somewhat open to the idea of a clan council. And I realize that if I were to vehemently oppose it, it would still probably happen. But at the same time, I tend to be very pragmatic. I understand that the council, should it survive, could get things done much more efficiently versus using public debate on this board. I could see a definite need for such a thing if we had some massive gaming community. Leaving all decisions to public debate in CounterStrike would be pointless. But that's not a problem here. In fact, there's a distinct lack of public debate here. Preemptively take away debate issues and it will be REALLY dead.

If there are issues that need ironing out, why not do it right here? A proposal:
You could have "ranked threads" where the problem is presented. If a majority of council members agree that it is a problem that should be fixed, then the thread would be open to suggested solutions from everyone. Then each council member could pick their favorite solution and the community at large could vote on which solution is best. There'd of course have to be time limits as to how long each step would take. I think clan members seeing rule changes coming about by means of their direct input in a somewhat formal fashion would be a small encouragement to them. I doubt they care one iota about the council - other than the fact of their like or dislike for decisions that are made by it.

Yeah, I know. I'm stepping all over your shoes right now Matrix. This kind of stuff is your turf. I'm sure you're shaking your head right now asking yourself what sort of pompous jerk of an upstart would dare to question the notion of a clan council. Perhaps that's an issue you can bring up at the next clan council meeting. LOL! Anyway, Par just HAD to keep mentioning my name as a delegate. So blame him that I'm bringing this up. Like I said, I'm open to convincing. But at the moment, I don't see the need and I don't like the idea of a few members of the community making decisions for the rest. Don't flame me too bad.

[This message has been edited by Irascible (edited September 08, 2002).]

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KONG
Member
posted September 08, 2002 10:16 PM            
1. we need more controls

2. we need more controls

3. we need more controls

4. Clinton was a great Pres (whoops, how did that get in there?)

4.we want more controls

even tho I think a clan council is a great idea, it should be geared towards gettin the clans involved in playing more. It shouldn't be about chasing ppl away and placing restrictions on recruiting. (lord knows there aren't enough ppl now)

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UGotDaNuke

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=DNX= Matrix
Member
posted September 08, 2002 11:11 PM            
youre thinking too broad Ras though i see your points.

"it should be geared towards gettin the clans involved in playing more"-kong.

- which is what is meant by the organiZing of events. but hey ras may have a point - why bother if most of it is already being done ! I mean im happy to organiZe events anyway and killer has kindly agreed the usage of his servers for DMF eventZ.

If the base intention is information flow through reps into the clans rather than hearing things 3rd hand or if ppl can be arsed to check the forums...

Perhaps it IS just a game and not worth all this hastle - i dunno, just trying to make thing better all round, improve flow, iron out problems and bash out issues to the benefit of all concerned - and as u say kong, get more ppl playing and ensure higher turnouts for clan/ddm/dmf events.

At the end of the day DMF is here for YOU as a community, i can continue coming up with ideas for as long as they serve to help, but its pointless putting effort into organiZing something nobody will attend or use.

Let me know either way lads.... DMF is there for you.... if you want to use it.

Any rules that are suggested would apply only to member clans of DMF in TM - im sure once the ps2 and future versions are out more will appear. This is more about seting up a general code of conduct rather than a strict ruleset. each clan will indeed keep its own identity. If a rep doesnt or isnt able to attend a meeting then its quite possible a decision maybe made without their input - but their clan, clan leader would know wel in advance and be able to organiZe a replacement for the proceedings (most usually will fall on the clan leader).

This is to be an open and organiZed topic forum for clan heads and reps to fire issues brought up by their clan members instead of hapless multidirectional posts here.

Nobody is knocking Par's DDM's but understand - more mods are coming out, more players are appearing and more versions are on the way, this inevitably means more servers, more tournaments and less headaches later if we get it setup before it goes all crazy

Of course, whatever is your pleasure all i can do is try. By all means shoot it in the foot, you have some very good points.. and at the end of the day its setup to try and help he community.

Either way DMF will still do events and pass out the info as needed here and on its own pages. So i guess if you miss it, or misunderstand the event rules - its just tough titty init'

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ģ 2002 /\/\∩ŢŔİX

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Irascible
Member
posted September 08, 2002 11:21 PM            
Wow. I didn't expect that. My usual "discussions" are more contentious and my usual "discussion partner" more belligerent. Now I'm not sure what to say. LOL!

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Irascible
Member
posted September 08, 2002 11:33 PM            
Just a thought:
Perhaps the clan council can go forward with the understanding that none of it will be binding until presented to and approved by the community at large. Perhaps it could be something akin to a think tank.

Then... only later when we have their trust... we can slowly usurp power... piece by piece... we'll use our jurisdiction over interstate travel to create hundreds of unconstitutional bureaucracies... we'll bomb aspirin factories to divert the public's attention from out (*cough*) occasional indiscretions... we'll export our social agenda across the planet by means of a seemingly compassionate foreign aid program... until one glorious day in which we rule the world! Muwahahahahah..... Wait, pretend you didn't see that last paragraph.

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=DNX= Matrix
Member
posted September 08, 2002 11:33 PM            
Why not start by saying "Im buying another game and leaving TM" LOL - sry couldnt resist that lol..... - just kiddin, we all love ya man lol......

But seriously... this has worked many times before and can again - however your points are valid, so the floor is over to you man

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Irascible
Member
posted September 08, 2002 11:54 PM            
"Why not start by saying "Im buying another game and leaving TM""
Not until I've "Gretzky-ed" the ladder. :^P :^)
Seriously though, TM2's arrival (should it ever happen) might very well be when I "retire" from the game. Too much will change. And the number of headaches I have to deal with (Supe, Ferdi and the like ) will grow exponentially.

Anywho, back to the main point: I want to hear from more people before the you turn the floor over to me again. Coax, kv, Par and the rest should be popping in sooner or later.

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=DNX= Matrix
Member
posted September 09, 2002 12:00 AM            
"presented to and approved by the community at large"-Ira

Thats the whole point of having reps DOH ! and decisions are based as in all meetings on a majority vote - i mean were not talking about world leadership here.

Course if u have better idea's im all ears man - Why dont you run a think tank.. thats an outstanding idea... "brainstorming sessions"; course one would have to ask you if they were qualified to join LMAO !

Since almost everyone in tm at the moment is in a clan, and each clan has a rep at each meeting to put forward the clans majority view, your idea of community acceptance kinda goes out the window like a nul file into a data dump since they are the start / source of the items to be discussed lol....

Im adding no more.... community site, community idea, community co-operation and community interaction. If thats too hard to even get started or comprehend then i really am wasting my time lol.

Oh and you missed the part where i stated it would affect DMF members only which rules out any stragglers, newbies etc. It also creates a mark of excellence and an abidance to a general code of conduct designed for the benefit of all and to which all newcomers should aspire to.

If this idea falls ras, ill prob set it up anyway and let existing clans decide if they want to join, that would be the more diplomatic option anyway.... and to the remaining players... caveat emptor

And thats my last word on the subject off ya go..... im expecting your best now man lol..... rip it to shreads

Hey heres an idea ras, why dont you chair a tm group designed to use exceptionally awkward to comprehend lineage and verbal dictation or thereby a created, written, and well presented non-volical argument to adversely influence and decimate any unliked postal topics

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ģ 2002 /\/\∩ŢŔİX

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Irascible
Member
posted September 09, 2002 12:36 AM            
"Since almost everyone in tm at the moment is in a clan, and each clan has a rep at each meeting to put forward the clans majority view, your idea of community acceptance kinda goes out the window."

That statement would appear to be at the heart of our different perceptions of things. Do you actually think I have a clue what my clan's "majority view" is? Bah! The only view I know is my own. Perhaps that's a weakness of BWL alone. Our clan is pretty much in hibernation when it comes to "clan stuff". Have you seen our BB? It couldn't possibly be more dead! So anything I might say or do at a clan council meeting would be Ras pushing his point of view - not the clan's. So my "idea of community acceptance", at least when it comes to BWL, is definitely not out the window. :P

I have a feeling most clans are that way, with the exception of DNX of course. I think it's distinctly possible that a majority of the clan council members would be in the same boat I am. They will no doubt correct me if I'm wrong. That's why I'm pushing the idea of having any proposed changes be ultimately approved of right here. This IS the place that gets the most TM player traffic. So it's much more likely that my clan's vote will be accurately represented if it's posted here than if I attend a clan council and try to guess what they want.

BTW, I could start a TM group devoted to exceptionally convoluted and archaic linguistics. But, I doubt it would last because no one would understand what in the hell anyone else was saying!!!

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=DNX= Matrix
Member
posted September 09, 2002 12:49 AM            
1st PRIZE - CONGRATULATIONS YOU HAVE WON A ROUND THE WORLD TRIP TO NOWHERE FOR 200 PEOPLE !!!!

Collect your prize here ----> www.dmf.filetap.com

"Our clan is pretty much in hibernation when it comes to "clan stuff". Have you seen our BB? It couldn't possibly be more dead"-Ira

So you think its revitalisation by discussing issues to bring forward is a bad thing ? Its true a lot of traffic this way comes.. but not all of it !

Did i mention id put your name on the Montgomery Ward mailing list ? !!!

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ģ 2002 /\/\∩ŢŔİX

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Irascible
Member
posted September 09, 2002 01:06 AM            
"So you think its revitalisation by discussing issues to bring forward is a bad thing ?"

Sigh.

No.

I don't.

Since it seems necessary to repeat myself I will:
"That's why I'm pushing the idea of having any proposed changes be ultimately approved of right here."

Have the freaking clan council! We can chit chat till the first person faints from exhaustion or goes blind from eye strain. We can elect chairpersons, co-chairpersons, secretaries, flag officers and treasurers. We can hire waitresses to serve us shrimp cocktails and caviar. And when we're done we can say we did it all for the children. WooFreakingHoo!!! But AFTER we talk our heads off like so many Oprah Winfreys on a caffeine rush , let's bring the proposed changes here for final approval. That's the ONLY way BWL's (and probably other's) "majority view" will be known.

BTW, I was LMAO as I typed some of that stuff. So please take the exaggerations as the sarcastic humor I meant them to be. It's all in good fun.

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=DNX= Matrix
Member
posted September 09, 2002 01:14 AM            
LMAO anyone ever see "monty Python & The Holy Grail" where theres a council of people, who talk about the possibility of having a talk based on a talk they had already talked about at a previous talk lol.

All in good fun Ras..... nobody's forcin' ya... or me for that matter lol...

For the record I recon youd be a great secretary ya, definately a size 10 dress i recon , must wear stockings, a short skirt, and remind me each day to put your memo paper on the bottom shelf of the floorstanding filing cabinet

If we did what you said, there would be no point in having reps or having a public chatrooms limited to elected rep chat lol tho i agree with your overall viewpoint.

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ģ 2002 /\/\∩ŢŔİX

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Irascible
Member
posted September 09, 2002 01:45 AM            
"If we did what you said, there would be no point in having reps or having a public chatrooms limited to elected rep chat lol tho i agree with your overall viewpoint.-Matrix"

The point would be:
"revitalisation by discussing issues to bring forward"-Matrix

It seems to me that your idea of a clan council is rigidly defined as leaders making decisions for others. IF that's what a clan council is, so be it. Never having been involved with other online games, I'm unfamiliar with what's considered the norm. But just don't have any delusions about those leaders, or at the very least myself, knowing what the "majority view" of their clans is. If the clan council has the power to make and implement policy, then those policies will be the creation of a few people's ideas of what's right and wrong - NOT the community's in general.

Is everyone OK with that? Probably not. My alternative was to bring the proposals here for final approval. It would be like the referendum process. In California when we have elections we vote on them. A FEW (like the clan council maybe) bring up the proposal and hammer out all the details. Then the voting public votes the proposal up or down. Of course, that takes power away from governmental types who think they know best. They don't like that. I guess you don't either. Hehe. :^P :^)

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=DNX= Matrix
Member
posted September 09, 2002 01:57 AM            
""revitalisation by discussing issues to bring forward"-Matrix"

- Out Of Context

The point is to discuss on your own clan forums *THUS KEEPING THEM ACTIVE* and bring issues to the meetings thru the reps.

But perhaps you are right, if you are prepared to do this much shouting over such a simple thing designed to help people, then who am i to stand in the way I must accept that this idea simply isnt going to work here. I have stated all the way this would not be a dictatorship in any way and tried to make it as fair as possible for all concerned....

This thread is the touchpaper ras, and you have the match - be my guest

Thx for this debate Ras, really helped clear my mind and calm my thoughts .... oh and free up some of my time

PS: the dress should be a size 12, I forgot those love handles :P

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ģ 2002 /\/\∩ŢŔİX

[This message has been edited by =DNX= Matrix (edited September 09, 2002).]

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Irascible
Member
posted September 09, 2002 02:22 AM            
Hmmm. I'm glad to see I have so much power. Hehe. But I am only one person. If no one else besides Kong and myself has a problem with a clan council as you have proposed then knock yourselves out. Like I've said a handful of times, I only know my point of view. I VERY MUCH like the idea of focused discussion on TM issues in a chatroom with a handful of well respected players. We could get a lot, or at least the little that needs to be, done.

But I don't like the idea of a handful of people making the final decisions. You said that it wouldn't be a dictatorship. But the only proof of that you give is that the chatroom would be open to spectators and that the transcript would be made available. Well if Saddam Hussein publicized the minutes of his meetings with his top advisors, would he then not be a dictator?

Oh, and the other proof you provide is that the council members would be representing the desires of their clans. You've already heard my response to that. I don't think most of them even know what those desires are, not for the majority at least. Like you said yourself, the way only way they could know is if their forums were active. But I think most of them aren't. And the formation of a clan council isn't likely to be impetus enough to make that happen.

But I'll make you a deal. If the other clan council members post here or somewhere that they think they do actually know what most of their clan members want, I'll shut my big fat trap. I can tell you already that there's no way that that's possible with BWL. But maybe we're the exception and all the other clan's members know each other like family.

Mind you, this deal only has to do with me shutting my trap. Whether I shut it or not doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the existence of a clan council. It's a free country... err... bulletin board. You guys can do what you like.

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Irascible
Member
posted September 09, 2002 02:25 AM            
BTW, if you think I'm shouting now then you haven't seen me shout.

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=DNX= Matrix
Member
posted September 09, 2002 03:09 AM            
Nobody as yet knows the desires of their clan because nobody as yet has had the opportunity to talk about it - appart fom LWA who have some burning issues im told.

Im glad to see you have so much faith in your clan, that hot topics that would affect you cannot motivate you to post. Everyone likes to get their views across - for is this not the point of any forum ?

As for your fat trap.... I wouldnt call size 12 fat, but some blusher, a bit of eyeshadow and some bright red lipstick wouldnt go amiss - Perhaps you can organiZe to be TM's Miss September pose for us on the DMF pic of the day

LOL, ok, i jest.... but its 8am here in the uk, i feel cranky and need some sleep lol.....

Nightall

Somebody contact me if yall want this thing to go ahead.... Till then i got work to be doing.

L8rz lol.... ZZZzzZZzzzzzZZzzzzzZzzz

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Blue n Gold Sue
Member
posted September 11, 2002 02:33 AM            
This is all over some little meeting? :0
For my recollection, an issue that has yet to be resolved is what to do about clan battles; when more than 6 players from a clan show up. Should the clan battles be limited in number? Can small clans join up together for this event? Can 30 DNX players show up and "take" the event? Are the LWA members really a clan? Are the Golden Ants? How about the clans that come and go, like ZE and TC? (this is just from my understanding of this gleemed from the forums, I have no actual knowledge of clans coming and going)
I *think* I can get 666 to attend on the 14th at 5:30 pacific time. ICQ him/me (his personal secretary) for an update if the time changes.

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AoDwingsofdeath
Member
posted September 11, 2002 02:40 AM         
ok here i am contributing my opinion as usual (even though it may not count lol)

I, for one, happen to agree with irascible, on quite a few points as a matter of fact i would say all of them lol. If you form a council or whatever it is, to dictate to clans who they can recruit and who they cant recruit, then no one will want to be a part of it.

The purpose of a clan making its OWN recruiting rules is just that....because it wants a certain people, to be unique in its own way and individual from everyone else, i mean what is the point in having a clan if all your going to do is obey external sources? thats not right i would think!

how do we know what needs to be ironed out? well ya know what i say to that? i say if it aint broke dont try to fix it! leave it the way it is if it breaks THEN fix it, if nots broke leave it be.

this sounds like what goes on in a clan really...i mean if you have more then one founder, such as me and sheedo, then the founders make the decision and everyone is required to go by it...i dont buy that at all, i believe in putting up a vote or poll to see what everyone else thinks about the subject before i say make it so, its only fair, its only right.

Now dont get me wrong please, as irascible already mentioned there are efficincies(sp?) and inefficincies(sp?) about having a clan council, i know them because i see them in my own clan everyday and have to deal with them directly, i am open to the idea and would like to participate but unless theres going to be generated interest then whats the point in doing so?

Ban Sach

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