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Author Topic:   Tonight on LDA....
Neo
Member
posted August 11, 2002 01:47 AM            
[This clarification is intended for those who were on the LDA server tonight from about 11:30-1 AM eastern]

The first "Neo" was, in fact, me. I decided that saying so here would be the easiest and most effective way to prove my identity. (Unfortunately, I am not the fabled and mythical Ras, but I'll take those comparisons as compliments.)

However, as you probably noticed, soon after I'd changed from my current pseudonym, "Bond", to "Neo", a second player decided to play as "Neo". The imposter continued this for several games. As a result, most things said under the name "Neo" were not actually my words but those of an imposter.

Therefore, racial comments, personal insults, and the like said under my name are not what I was actually saying. Hopefully those of you who've played with me in the past understand that insulting or offending other players is never my intention. Sorry for the mixup.

[EDIT: typo correction]

[This message has been edited by Neo (edited August 11, 2002).]

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Blue n Gold Sue
Member
posted August 11, 2002 04:10 AM            
Neo, so sorry that happened. KiLLer, you have the TM logs, dont' you? Can you check IP addresses and see if this is part of the recent identity problem?

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SuperUnknown
Administrator
posted August 11, 2002 04:26 AM            
I 2nd that.I was there too.Foul mouthed Neo was not our beloved Neo.Exchanges between Guido and whoever the Neo imposter was.When we gonna get the ability to boot on servers like LDA?Tonight was one of those nights for sure.I would be ashamed to call myself American if I had to call them that too Glad we were all adults on there I think... but I don't know how old Teulk is?Its a shame stuff like this has to happen publicly.

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BamZipPow
Member
posted August 11, 2002 04:51 AM            
Sue,

LDA hasn't implemented Killer's script so he won't have any logs to work with. AFAIK, the logs won't contain any IP addresses...unless you're running an IP scanner/logger on the server.

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=DNX= Matrix
Member
posted August 11, 2002 06:30 AM            
Ive told ppl how to get round this b4.... twice i believe.

Use a memory scanner - when someone swears hop out of the game or alt tab intro the scanner, search for the text and name, next to it will be an IP.

Use a Tracer - put the ip in and find out what network/ISP ppl are on and if its static or dynamic.

Compare - The findings with their LDA forum login, if theres a match you have ur prat, if theres not you have an imposter, from that point on you can only scan ip's and repeat traces to ident people, but with so many isp's out there i find it hard to believe so many ppl would be on the same isp, so it makes ident that much easier.

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HUT
Member
posted August 11, 2002 08:55 AM            
Hi
I was there also. You do not worry will be better day tomorrow.

[This message has been edited by HUT (edited August 11, 2002).]

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Dreamer
Member
posted August 11, 2002 09:41 AM         
ROFLMAO@that pic

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Bonzo Dog
Member
posted August 11, 2002 10:11 AM            
Apparantly or so i am told, If somebody use`s dialup the IP change`s everytime you connect. Correct me if i am wrong.

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Cap-N-Jack
unregistered
posted August 11, 2002 11:21 AM           
or a firewall
it can be set to block the IP


hay hut i read that book!

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KiLlEr
Member
posted August 11, 2002 11:42 AM            
I donot have individual player's IPs. THe TM log files donot contain that information. And even if it did, most dial ups and even some dsl/cable companies use dynamic IP addresses so even if I had the ips, it would do no good. Also, some people use university machines to play online games. If you block that IP, you disallow anyine fro using that machine to play, and what would keep the offending player from simply walking off to another machine?


The only information TMLogScan pulls from the TM logs is a player changing their name. But the website dosn't keep track of this, nor do I keep logs of what the servers send.

But its a moot point since LDA never runs the TMLogScan client.

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=DNX= Matrix
Member
posted August 11, 2002 11:48 AM            
Static IP's generally dont change (cable etc)- These are STATIC IP's - Dynamic (dialups/isdn etc) do change, but not as much as you think. The IP is seperated into 4 blocks, the first & 2nd (AFAIK corrcet me if wrong) ident your country and ISP, these dont change; the last 2 do. So you can track an ISP, but you need real dedicated softs to get beyond that level of data.

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KONG
Member
posted August 11, 2002 12:10 PM            
Not always true. As an example:

I could post on this BBs, reconenct, and every # in my IP would be different.

depends on how large your Isp is.

Anyway, we went over this b4. To block someone that uses a large isp, you would effectively block other ppl who use that isp.

I am sure the board moderators could verify this.

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Bonzo Dog
Member
posted August 11, 2002 01:08 PM            
So how come people can be accused of being a certain person as has happened in the past. Must be guess work.

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Neo
Member
posted August 11, 2002 01:49 PM            
Hopefully it's not something that will happen again. I don't think it will--but if it starts to become a continuing problem for me, I'll just have to dream up some fresh aliases and play as those. People will keep calling me Ras though, I guess, so that might grow old very quickly.

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Irascible
Member
posted August 11, 2002 01:59 PM            
You should consider it an honor. :P

Anyway, you don't have to worry about it because all the old timers here know you better than that... carn sarn it.

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Neo
Member
posted August 11, 2002 03:26 PM            
hehe, yeah, su had my back last night.

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SuperUnknown
Administrator
posted August 11, 2002 04:07 PM            
Matrix,wouldn't you need root access to the LDA server to do that?How exactly are you going to get a IP if you are just a player and not the server op?

And Admins here can ban people with dynamic but like Kong said that also means it might include people that use the same ISP too.Blocks the first few sets of numbers that doesn't change.Though we are small and it would be a extremly remote chance that two players would use the same ISP with the same first 3 sets of IP numbers.

Anyway,thats not the real issue here.We need a way to do something if it happens and not just let to happen.People can do whatever they want to on LDA with no threat of getting booted.Maybe if you run a server you need to have ICQ up and running also for as long as your server is up so players would have a good chance of getting you?But that does nothing for LDA.

Throw out some ideas if you got them please.

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ARAGON
Member
posted August 11, 2002 06:15 PM            
I wasn't the alter Neo, but I apologize to Smiley and whomever else was on when I started to exchange insults with Guido. Most were directed to him on his "views" as I was the brunt of some of his "views".

I have been putting up with him and his punk *bleep* crap for weeks and finally lost it.

Thats the most embarrasing part, losing my cool to someone like that.

[This message has been edited by ARAGON (edited August 11, 2002).]

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SuperUnknown
Administrator
posted August 11, 2002 07:49 PM            
I understand that Aragon.He has been trying to mess with you for at least the last week that I have seen.Sometimes I have to really bite my tongue when something like that happens.

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KiLlEr
Member
posted August 11, 2002 09:19 PM            
Not entirely true Matrix. There are some cable and dsl providers that use dynamic IP addresses that are changed when the connection between the modem and the c/o node renew the connection. Also, there are some dialups that use static IP addresses.
The type (dialup, isdn, cable, etc) doesn't matter, its how the ISP wants to sell its service that determins wether the connection uses dynamic or static IPS. Some ISPs go as far as renewing DHCP addresses every few hours you're online.
As far as IP addresses go, the slip between the network and host address does not designate the country or location the machine is in. (nor is the split between the first 2 and last 2 sets of numbers standard as there are 4 classes of IP addresses which split up the IP address differently). IPs addreses are sold to ISPs in blocks, which is why only some of the numbers change. But if you block the network part, you block ALL users of that ISP which could be several thousand users.

The point is there is NO way to stop unwanted people from accessing the TM servers. Unless someone adds public key encryption to TM and only allow people with a listed public key and password to get on.
And if you ask me, there shouldn't be such a block because no matter how much you may dislike an individual, unless they cause bodily harm or threat to your life, they have every right to access the public servers (or any other public area for that matter) as you and I do. By choosing to engage in any dialogue with a person who is obviously looking to start an argument by verbal abuse will only antagonize the situation. These individuals only do this because they can get to you and you have no way of recourse, so they get off on it and keep at it. Obviously, these poeple cannot do this in real life as they will undoubtably get their heads smashed in, so they do it online where you're powerless against them. They hide behind anonimity. And anyone thinks that getting people IP addresses to track them down is a good idea, then riddle me this, if you can get thier name and home address, what exactly are you going to do? You can't prove anything and in reality, they haven't done anything. Did they steal your identity? did they injure you or caused a physical injury to you or some one you love? did they steal your belonging or money? No, all they did was open their pathetic mouths and vented their twisted views on you. Which is a constitutional right, like it or not. If they deny you of a promotion, job, earnings, etc because of thier views etc., THEN you have a course of action because they have interfered with your rights.

The only people who have an course of action in a case like this is LDA for example. As peopel like this do cause financial injury to the company as they need the server as a form of 'advertisement'. People like these would drive anyone who is interested in thier product away. BUT in this case, LDA in can do little, because the server they run requires a comercial version. They only remark they can make is tat it hurts them through indirect advertisement via word of mouth for people who own it, but that is streaching it since the limit of advertisment is narrow, Unlike "download this new game's multiplayer demo and try it out!" which is direct advertisment that will affect anyone who has access to downloading the demo. (Face it word of mouth advertising DOESN'T work, hence Commodore Business machines, RIP). THis is a greater issue for pay-per-play games, as the online experiance is at the core of their business.

<steps out of lawyer alter ego>

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Irascible
Member
posted August 11, 2002 10:05 PM            
I would say most of your post is right Killer.

<steps into lawyer mode>
But LDA's servers are privately held property. As such they can determine what restrictions they will in allowing people to access servers as long as it doesn't violate law. Requiring civil discourse on one's own private property, even if you allow the public to use it, is perfectly legal. And before someone responds with "Who are we to judge what's civil?", don't forget that the politically correct politicians, judges, and other civil servants that would determine the outcome of a suit regarding such matters would almost unanimously agree that someone who does such a thing should be proverbially shot for the type of language we're talking about. For good or for bad, the law's view on that kind of speech has been made clear.

A good analogy is the in-laws. You can invite them into your house. You can tell them the ground rules for their "free speech" in the house. When they violate them, as you know they will, you have every right to tell them to get off your property. The in-laws have freedom of speech in public forums. But they don't have it in your house.
<steps out of lawyer mode>

I'm sure you know that anyway. That's just a pet peeve of mine that I always like to draw clear distinctions on. I'm sure you know, there's lots of people trying to turn freedom of speech into something it was never intended. Now what LDA is going to do or not do about exercising their right to limit access to the server is a discussion I'll leave to you guys and them. Well, it's probably just them since in the end we probably have little influence on the matter. They seem busy with other things these days... like trying to make money for once!

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KONG
Member
posted August 11, 2002 10:21 PM            
How did I know that Ras would reply to that reply?

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KiLlEr
Member
posted August 11, 2002 10:33 PM            
You're 100% correct Irascible. Here in lies the problem:

In your example (and any other real world scenarios) you have a physical person that can be removed from a physocal area, and if neded, bar from returning via a court order. YOu have a face, you have a name. This falls apart on the internet as there is no "physical" place they can be "removed" from. Also, we can't even be 100 % sure that the person is who they are.

One possibility is to take the persons computer away, as was done in the 80's when this mess started. But they can just get another one. Can't go by IP, same problem. Putting an encrypted key in the game when one registers their copy (NOW we have a name and an address), but we have no proof that they were the ones using it at the time. Same problem.

The only solution would be this Orwellian one. The moment some one is born you assign them a serial number and embed it in an encrypted key store on a chip that is embedded under the skin. then you can block access to whatever you want (until someone figures out how to reprogram it). I cringe at the thought.

Unless you catch the person in the act, and glean enough proof of thier identity (credit card number would do) and that the machine used is in thoer possetion (a cookie for example), you have no leagal coarse of action. Remember the hackers in the 80's? They were caught when they were in the process of hacking, and the FBI bashed down thier door and their computers removed along with the hacker.

Of course none of this is new and has been with us for a long time now.

[This message has been edited by KiLlEr (edited August 11, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by KiLlEr (edited August 11, 2002).]

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Irascible
Member
posted August 11, 2002 10:44 PM            
Well, that's why I said that I was sure you knew that. But there might have been some who read your post** who said to themselves, "Yeah! That's right! I can say whatever I want wherever I want!". There's lots of those types out there and they're dead wrong. I was just splitting hairs over what LDA's rights are and what free speech is. As you so correctly point out, enforcement is a completely different and messy matter.

**BTW, I'm sure you realize few people read all of our long posts. Long winded [long typed?] folks like you and me constantly overestimate the ability of others to give a rat's behind of what we think... hehe

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Sailor
Administrator
posted August 11, 2002 11:07 PM            
Perhaps others do or don't Ras, but I find the philosophical discussions interesting and enjoy the verbal debates or points as is the case. Good open discussions are always well worth checking out to help one clarify in their own mind what their thoughts on a subject are and reinforce those thoughts with points they may or may not have had themselves. Always healthy and worth the effort to follow. Thanks to any and all who engage in those discussions and bring new information or old to the forefront. Good mental exercise for all of us.

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May you always have a following Sea and the comfort of those you hold nearest to your heart.
TreadMaps

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