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Author Topic:   General comments for TM soccer
coax
Administrator
posted March 23, 2002 02:54 AM            
BAM, you really did a great job with that mod. I hope LDA gets a chance to view it, because I think we've shown its possible with the current TM engine and could even be included in TM2.

Couple things though, I really don't think we need that many mass drivers. It tends to choke up the server. If we just used the 120mm it should be well enough.

Also, having the 8-ball keep shooting at you is fun at times but its not really true to the soccer theme. I would change it so that the soccer ball has its own unlimited supply of its own weapon that applys no push and has no damage.

Really good job, I encourage everyone to try it out. Kevlar can you put it on yor site if you already haven't done it.

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Tread Marks Ladders


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SuperUnknown
Administrator
posted March 23, 2002 04:05 AM            
Its hard to hit the ball with a 120 when it has the mass I think.I wish we could make the ball without a weapon at just ram it and no weapons at all on the server.Would kinda be like football and soccer mixed.

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-DNX-Ni
Member
posted March 23, 2002 08:40 AM            
here here Supe! I thot that was the general idea in the first place! keep the 120mm for hard tackles though!

still..I've posted my feelings on this mod an will again!! ****** amazing!!!!!!!!!

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Feck It... Light Speed

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BamZipPow
Member
posted March 23, 2002 09:54 AM            
Thanks all for the support. This is going to be a long oneÖ(maybe even longer than a JVortex post!)

I'm all ears to making this map a more balanced and fun game. Iíve always remembered that soccer was a sport that included team effort, skill, and speed. Almost like a TM DCTF.

First, it was impossible to apply realistic soccer rules to Soccer TM style. How would you enforce those rules? Like off-sides? Tackling? Interference? Penalties? Out of bounds? There aren't any "referees" or whistles to blow. After scoring, you would have to reset the teams to their appropriate sides before play could resume. Unless all players "played" by these rules, it would be almost impossible to enforce the rules or play the game and have fun. And thatís what the testers/players showed me so far. They had fun!

I've tried running into the ball with various physics settings and various tanks to move it down the field and there didnít seem like you could get any real accuracy doing it that way. So I had to introduce weapons that would do the job.

First, the standard 120mm gun. Limited range. Included with the tank. Directional aiming for those inclined.

Next, the mass driver. Bit too powerful; long range; side mounted. Had the idea to mount it to the turret. This would allow directional aiming for those inclined. Some tanks will flip over and will not be able to right themselves back with the mass driver mounted to the turret. Oh well. I hope they have teammates that will help them or they can deathwish.

No other stock weapon would allow the accuracy or finesse that these 2 weapons provided for soccer.

Since some of you canít stand having the ball shoot back at you, Iíve considering removing all weapons for the AI. In order for the AI tank not to have any weapons so it wouldnít shoot at you, I would have to eliminate it's gun or 120mm ammo count (possible), the ability for it to mount the mass driver (unknown if this would be possible), remount the mass driver for the ball in a different spot, or remove the mass driver from the field entirely.

Just so you know, I added the mass driver to assist with defense of the goal. If one team gets a break away with no one between them and the goal, it's not really fair to be just armed with a 120mm gun. A single or even dual goalie would not be able to stop the other team from kicking them into the goal first before scoring with the ball. That would be a hoot and lots of fun, but not fair. Again, there wasnít any ability to enforce standard soccer rules and to keep it fun. So there had to be something that could reach out and touch the ball. Hence, the mass driver was added.

Hereís one train of thought. We could modify the turret to have mass driver ammo. That could solve the basic problem of not having the ball shoot back and keep the long range defense capability. Does anyone know if there be a way of incorporating the mass driver laser site to the gun? If we were to implement this, the only power up on the field then would be standard ammo boxes. How about that?

Believe it or not, I discovered that if you lower the AI skill for the server settings, the ball tank doesn't travel as far. At a "0" skill level, the ball barely travels anywhere when you hit it with either the mass or gun. Barely 1/4 the distance of a 120mm gun's projection. This setting would make the game crawl to a stand still. You would be able to shoot your opponents 5 times further than the ball. At 80% AI skill level, I emptied the mass driver (40 ammo) just to get it down the field. For now, I'll keep the AI skill to 100% on my server to keep the game lively and fast. Just donít get whapped too much by the AI ball!!

I've already applied some of Vlad's suggestion to lower the range of the mass (from 300m to 200m), reduced the current mass driver's trail (it apparently lags the game down) from 40 iterations to 20. Iíve also applied some of SuperUnknownís suggestion about keeping the ball down to earth. Do you want the map friction to be increased? Are you sliding more than you would expect? Do you have more suggestions that could work? Let me know and Iíll see what I can do. Remember, Iím only a first time modder.

As fun as the map is now, I still have to completely redo the map so it will meet my standards for map making. There are some quirks and unevenness about the map that I need to fix before it can be released to the general public.

Well, so much for a short post. I had to put this in my word processor so I could keep track of what I wrote.

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GoldAnt_Number1
Member
posted March 23, 2002 12:41 PM            
Hey BZP, Somebody mentioned Team Unis in another post. To Make Uniforms, have everybody use like Tron and Tron blue tank. The Tron tanks would be team black and Tron Blue for Blue =) The Main Gun would spawn a Mass Driver that you w ould automatically pick up, when you picked it up, the Tron Blue tanks would go completely blue and wobbly like the Shadow Keeper, And the Tron tanks would go Black and Wobbly. howasbout it? I'll even do it for ya if you want. Just ICQ me to and i'll get on it =) Its not really necessary, but could be kinda fun, and alot easier to see who your teammates are in the game, and who you should accidently shoot while aiming for the ball

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Rex R
Member
posted March 23, 2002 01:11 PM            
lets see ball shooting, change its tank gun ammo to say tankgun2 and up the reload time. tankgun/mass driver laser bit, can't do that at present(no SecEnt for tanks) what can be done is use the laser mesh ala the true laser and a sec ent laser beam(true laser change projectile to sniper(think thats it)) bolton 1 (IIRC)

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Kevlar
Member
posted March 23, 2002 03:50 PM            
Well I suggested 2 mass driver spawns points maybe one at each end instead of upping the weight on mass drivers this is what I was talking about.

Go into TMapper and highlight the spawn point and use the drop down to set it to mass driver. Then go into the stock mass driver ent and set the weight to 1.

Then only those two points will spawn mass drivers. The same can be done all over the field to set specified weapons in specified areas. Say you can set a dedicated super ammo from the drop down or health or a dedicated regular power up, etc.

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Kevlar
Member
posted March 23, 2002 03:54 PM            
PS: As far as the map and field goes I don't think you need to change a thing. The field looks realistic and the goals with the spewers are awesome. Thats my opinion.

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TurdHeart
Member
posted March 23, 2002 04:31 PM            
Totally great. We simply must get this going with a bunch of people on a fast server sometime. Beauty.

The only comment I would make probably can't be helped. I think it's caused by the steep slopes around the walls. When I go sliding up the walls, I get this crazy parallax effect with the graphics - kinda hard to describe. I swear I'm *NOT* on drugs.

No wait - here it is...
http://home.attbi.com/~reavie/treadmarks/real/tank_on_drugs.jpg

Told ya I wasn't on drugs. Is it just me?

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SuperUnknown
Administrator
posted March 23, 2002 04:47 PM            
As far as just hitting the ball,is there a way to put something like a blade on front of the tank to hit the ball?Like a bulldozer.Oh..just thought of something.All of the tanks have the same speed don't they?So there wouldn't be anyway to catchup to a person in front of you.Maybe you could penalize the speed of the tank or just take into account that they would be having to keep control of the ball and probablly not drving in a straight line with the gas to the floor.I just wish there was some way we could just ram the ball with our tanks and not have to have any weapons to make the ball move.Perhaps have just tanks like Vlad's Ifrit where you can get from point a to point b really fast and it would be harder to hit the ball and keep control of it but there would be some control and it would be a lot harder for someone to have a open break oppurtunity?And you would have to make the feild much longer.I keep thinking about one of the weapons in Carmaggedon where there was a boxing glove attacked to a spring in front of the car and you could unleash it and knock the crap out of a tank with a mass driver effect It just feels really awekward hitting the ball with a mass driver and it seems to never go where I want it to.

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Kevlar
Member
posted March 23, 2002 05:20 PM            
The only time I've ever got that paralax effect is when a map uses a custom sky (skybox), and for some reason you either don't have the custom bmp files or something. And it usually only happens when looking up, like on the wall.

That's the only time I have seen that happen.

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TM-Central.com


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Kevlar
Member
posted March 23, 2002 06:47 PM            
And now for something completely different...

For those of you who never met AI-Kick-Me don't know how mean he can be... Especially when he happens across a mass driver.

I witnessed one of the funniest thing I have ever seen today. I watched one of the best players in TM get beat up by a soccer ball. *mumble... course its already happened to me too.*

Thought I would show this little movie especially for the people who did not get in on the testing. I almost couldn't hold the camera still while laughing.
http://www.tm-central.com/animation/kingjohn-n-kickme.avi


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TM-Central.com


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Vlad
Member
posted March 23, 2002 09:12 PM            
Here's some more suggestions.

- Disarm the soccer ball. I'm sure it has to be possible. You can strip it of 120 shots by defining AmmoMax = 0 in its racetank file. I'm sure there's a similar way to disable boltons.

- For scoring a goal, maybe make a lava pit instead of a ton of spewers. That will help the lag out a TON. Unfortunately, I've got no idea how to make a lava pit. I tried emailing RC about it a while back, but he never responded

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KiLlEr
Member
posted March 23, 2002 09:17 PM            
Or, put a large flat or box projectile with the texture blend at 100% (so its invisible)in the goal area. Then have the explohit entity respawn the same projectile.

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A2597
Member
posted March 23, 2002 09:40 PM            
If someone sends it tome, I'll host it temparaily at B5-Blender. (Until Kevlar, or someone else gets it up)

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### Hi, I'm a sig virus. Please add me to the end of your signature so I can take over the world. ### - Caught from excaliber @ B5mg.com

[This message has been edited by A2597 (edited March 23, 2002).]

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Vlad
Member
posted March 23, 2002 11:24 PM            
quote:
Or, put a large flat or box projectile with the texture blend at 100% (so its invisible)in the goal area. Then have the explohit entity respawn the same projectile.

I'm not sure how well TM would handle projectiles of that size, as far as the collision detection goes. I know that the engine has problems with collisions with large meshes (you can drive through certain parts of the two towers on boomstickville), though.

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KiLlEr
Member
posted March 23, 2002 11:42 PM            
True, but the houses work fine. So the box only needs to be as big as a house.

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BamZipPow
Member
posted March 24, 2002 06:14 AM            
Okay...I've neutered the gun for the AI. Don't have a solution for the mass yet. So 1 out of 2 isn't too bad...

This is still a test map and not releaseable to the main public yet. Okay...just about everyone who plays might have the map by now. But it's still under testing...

So how does one make a box projectile float in the air? If I could make a "force" field effect by having multiple boxes or squares on the front side of the goal, that would work for me. That way the goal would be zoned and as soon as the ball crossed the plane of the goal, bammo!!

As far as the lava/poison/acid pit goes, there wouldn't be anything to keep the ball from getting killed if it crossed the plane of the goal and not touch the ground inside the goal. I found that out the hard way when I had just plasmamines on the ground. The ball just went in and back out again. That's why I had to go with spewers to cover the front of the goal. Sigh.

Are you sure that the lagginess of my server isn't because of my DSL service? I had a temp server up one time and it was laggy for those who logged on back then as well. I guess I could pack up my stuff and have someone host it on a better service line. It could even be the way I have my dedicated.cfg file setup. Could very well be the server rate, FPS, or client rate that I have setup. I'm not a seasoned vet at servers...

Still need to fix the map, the goal kill, and figure a better way to "disarm" the ball for those inclined. I guess I could have a server for just 2 people with the ball armed, and a server for more than 6 people without the ball armed. As a 2 person game, it's really boring to play against a non-reactive ball. Remember...this is TM Soccer.

Thanks all who've tried out TM Soccer and for your valueable inputs as well. Keep the comments coming!

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BamZipPow
Member
posted March 24, 2002 06:50 AM            
Okay...another thought and post.

After some discussion with some of the online players, it seems best to keep the laser site on the mass driver as this will allow you to carefully aim at the ball and not the opponent. Without this aid, you could hit them more than the ball.

I've been able to pick the ball out of a crowd without hitting anyone in the crowded pack of players. It only helps with good sportmanship.

All players should play nice on the field and not aim at the other players. It doesn't make a good soccer game if you keep getting blasted out of the way. If this becomes a trend within the game, I'll just give the ball back his balls and let it duke it out with you guys instead.

Also, I have found that the lower height tanks, like the Tron/Tron blue or Zodiac, work out great in this game. Yes, that means you have to get the Tron/Tron blue tank from Kevlar's site. I believe you should find it in the master tank pack 1 and pack 2. The reason they fair better is because when the ball has the mass driver, it will shoot over your tank more often than hitting you. It still can hit you, just not as much. You'll just have to try out the different tanks and see what will work for you.

BTW, you should pick your tank before joining the game. Since I had to "adapt" the tanks so the AI would only get the ball tank and a strange server glitch where a game will start with a non-ball tank, you will most likely not be able to switch tanks in the middle of the game. You'll just have to quit the game and rejoin with a new tank. I could be wrong though...

I've also upped the friction of the map from 10 to 18. This seems to give a happy medium to most players without sliding around too much. If you think it should go higher, let me know. Right now as it stands, you can stick to the side of the walls just like spiderman. LoL!! See you on the field...

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Vlad
Member
posted March 24, 2002 08:56 AM            
quote:
So how does one make a box projectile float in the air? If I could make a "force" field effect by having multiple boxes or squares on the front side of the goal, that would work for me. That way the goal would be zoned and as soon as the ball crossed the plane of the goal, bammo!!

In the projectile ent file, put "followground = X", where X is the number of meters that the projectile sits above the ground. Using that method, you could line the back of the goal with projectiles, effectively setting it up so that a goal will be scored once the ball hits the back of a goal (like in real soccer, I think).

quote:
Are you sure that the lagginess of my server isn't because of my DSL service? I had a temp server up one time and it was laggy for those who logged on back then as well. I guess I could pack up my stuff and have someone host it on a better service line. It could even be the way I have my dedicated.cfg file setup. Could very well be the server rate, FPS, or client rate that I have setup. I'm not a seasoned vet at servers...

It's quite possible that it's your DSL. My DSL connection is the exact same way, not enough upload speed to handle a good server. I was just throwing out a random suggestion on that one.

quote:
Still need to fix the map, the goal kill, and figure a better way to "disarm" the ball for those inclined. I guess I could have a server for just 2 people with the ball armed, and a server for more than 6 people without the ball armed. As a 2 person game, it's really boring to play against a non-reactive ball.

Eh, I wouldn't mind a non-reactive ball. It's pretty annoying that it is reactive, especially considering that it doesn't always fly in the direction you want it to when you smack it with a mass driver. I'll mess around with racetank files a bit and see what I can do to make it unable to pick up a mass driver.

quote:
Also, I have found that the lower height tanks, like the Tron/Tron blue or Zodiac, work out great in this game. Yes, that means you have to get the Tron/Tron blue tank from Kevlar's site. I believe you should find it in the master tank pack 1 and pack 2. The reason they fair better is because when the ball has the mass driver, it will shoot over your tank more often than hitting you. It still can hit you, just not as much. You'll just have to try out the different tanks and see what will work for you.

In that case, you should consider including all the non-server side tanks in the soccer zip.

quote:
I've also upped the friction of the map from 10 to 18.

Oh yeah, it's much better now.

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Vlad
Member
posted March 24, 2002 09:07 AM            
I did some basic testing, and here's what I've got as far as disallowing the ball from grabbing mass drivers:

- Commenting out the turretmesh and gunmesh lines still allow a tank to pick up a turret bolton, turn its turret, and fire it.

- Commenting out the bolton0 location line doesn't disable bolton0, just move it to 0,0,0.

- The best solution I could find was to reduce turretspeed to 0.0, that way it can't turn its turret. That way, you've still gotta worry about it getting you, but if you approach it from a certain angle, you'll be fine.

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Kaeto
Member
posted March 24, 2002 09:14 AM            
If you make a custom soccer tank, you can make the turret WICKED long to replace the mass driver's laser. Either that or a custom bauble. It's VERY hard to make the bauble stay pointed straight though.

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Hammer
Member
posted March 24, 2002 09:45 AM            
Hey,
Just played some TM soccer last night it is very cool. I did make one mistake and kept shooting at the other player to gain position on the ball. This got them upset and I could not understand why until I thought about it.
Doh!In TM soccer the weapon is used to "kick" or "head" the ball towards the goal. In real soccer, players do not "kick" or "head butt" each other . I do think bumping or in our case ramming is allowed to get the best position on the ball!
So in a 1 on 1 match you would want a fast tank but in a team match you would want a couple of fast tanks to run with the ball , and a couple of medium strong tanks to block or get position on the ball to get it to one of the faster tanks!
I never played soccer and really don't know the rules of the real game, never mind the TM version.

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-DNX-Ni
Member
posted March 24, 2002 10:28 AM            
you're perfectly right Hammer! Normal football, or 'soccer' teams consist of 4 basic sections: - Goalkeeper
Defense
Midfield
Attack

Goalkeeper, is as the title implies is used to guard the goal and is the only player on the park, besides the opposition's goalie allowed to handle the ball inside the penalty area. They require good anticipation, handling of the ball, agility and reflexes. Plus good strength to gather the ball from cross-balls from the wings (sides of the pitch).

Defense is where you have the huge guys who can use their muscle and anticipation to tackle or shield the ball from attackers. They often need to be good at making sharp decisions as they play so close to their own goal, a wrong move might result in the ball being taken off them and offering the opposition an opportunity on goal. As a result of this they need to be pretty good at passing too.

Midfield is the vital part of the game which links the defense to the attack and permits fluidity to the whole action of a team's attempt on goal. Midfielders are the playmakers and decision makers as they gather the ball from the defense, hold it and/or travel with the ball while in search of movement from other midfielders who might be more attacking or to forward/strikers in attack. Normal attributs of a midfielder is flair, decisions, passing, influence and are often required to know how to strike a ball hard an accurately as they can pass and move ot a better striking position.

Attackers are basically players who are normally fast, full of life and occasionally a bit of strength to hold off challenges and permit them to take a shot on goal. They require good poise and balance with a lot of compousre and good 'off-the-ball' movement, which means they look to see where the game is going and find a suitable position to retreive the ball and link up play or shoot for goal. Stamina is important especially in strikers as most of their game entails running without the ball and physical tussles with defenders. Good finishing is inevitably required as a striker witht he ability to contort and turn their body into some amazing and seemingly impossible positions to gain a shot on goal depending on how much time is given to them from when they take the ball initially to the time they pass or shoot.

*gasps for breath*

Offside, as Bam mentioned is a strange but effective rule which flummoxes most newbies to the sport.
To try and explain this rule one could use an example.

If a team is on the attack and midfield has it, they are naturally looking for an attacker to pass to. If an attacker is quite far forward, then the defense of the opposition can 'step-up' which means to run forward a little, so when the ball is played to the attacker, the attacker is closer to the opposition's goal than any member of the opposition. This, on paper ,is unfair to the opposing team as the attacker is deemed to have an advantage as in he has a few yards extra on the defense.

The Attacker is not allowed to be closer tot he oppostions' goal than anyone of the opposing teams' players (apart from the goalkeeper) but if he is in-line witht he opposition's players then he has the benefit of the doubt, supposedly.


I doubt the offside rule is needed in Bam's mod as it would be too hard to tell or signal and, besides, we never play that in 5-a-sides on sunday.

maybe, if a team were to have a goalkeeper, then the goalie is the only one allowed a mass-driver to 'punch' the ball away.

I reckon it would be better also, if we were to just bunt the ball around, then less people would be annoyed at being blasted off the ball.

*phew*

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Feck It... Light Speed

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BamZipPow
Member
posted March 24, 2002 04:02 PM            
Wow Ni...my head hurts now. And I know it's not from the whapping I got in TM Soccer.

Super...I can show you how to accurately use the mass driver to get the ball down the field. Just ICQ me and I'll show you what you need to know. You kinda apply the principles of soccer and playing pool as the tank is round. It depends exactly where on the ball you hit it and how it will react. To get back spin, hit it within the lower part of the tank with a cannon shot. To redirect the ball to another direction, hit it on the side that it's traveling in. I usually approach the ball with the mass to hit is on it's side vs trying to hit it with a direct shot. Yes, it takes practice...

Like soccer, you don't kick the ball with your toes (at least, not accurately) but more with the inside of your foot. If you were to hit it with your right foot, it would go to the left and vice versa for your left foot. You would then alternate your feet to get the ball traveling down the field. Does that make sense so far?

If you watch me going down the field, you'll see me switch off by hitting the ball on the left then right unless I need to just kick the ball out of the way for defense or counter offense. Also, you'll see me kick the ball off from the side to get it going straight. If it's a 2 player game, I can usually make a goal in 1 or 2 shots from the centerline.

No, Ni...I haven't tried dribbling the ball with my tank. The other players just shoot me instead to get to the ball. : [

These are just a few tips on how to accurately place your shots. Remember, don't shoot the other players...please! See you on the field...

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