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Hunter
Member
posted January 19, 2001 11:35 AM            
OK, I got the game, I laid down $32.00 for it. I love it, but I went online, and all I can say is where the hell are all the "loyal" Tread Marks players? I only saw two people playing, Super Unknown and Villian. I played for about an hour and I tried all the servers which all ran perfectly. I finally gave up and went back to the demo. Did I waste my money if I want to play real people online? The demo is great and has always satisfied my TM urge I only really bought the full version out of loyalty and curiosity, and hoping to find the best the players, but where the hell are they? Let me know a day and time that I can see some of the "great" players from BWL or any other lance. I would love to test my skills on them.

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coax
Administrator
posted January 19, 2001 12:03 PM            
Usually its me and super most nights, I've just needed some extra sleep recently. But if you played against Super I know there was no way you could of won any of the games. So I would say you got your skills well tested

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Biography Website

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synack
Member
posted January 19, 2001 12:29 PM         
Hunter, the challenge obviously is that players live all over the world. Except during DDM's or DFF's, you're only likely to catch 2-3 of the names you recognize at any one time. Sometimes more if you're lucky.

Hopefully, in time, this will improve.

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Dreamer (BWL/MG)
Member
posted January 19, 2001 12:32 PM            
Hunter - very few people on this board actually claim that they play a lot, you know, most of us are far too busy to play every night, some of us - like me - sometimes won't be seen online for weeks. I regard TM as the best online community I've ever experienced, the game itself is just what catalyzed us into this community. There are people out there who do play and I'm always happy to meet some and have a chat during the matches, watching the bots kill each other in the meantime. I do play sometimes, however and I do have to admit that it's always discouraging to have only bots to play with on each and every server with ping <500, but I used to expect this would change. I said: used to, because I think there's not much hope left for TM: I don't think there's ever been a worse-published game. Not a single ad, not a single retailer over here in Germany, where it was supposed to be available by mid-december. NC, really.
Again, there's only this clue for LDA: Tell AAA to go stick their heads in a pig and be done about it. I don't think they're worth whatever small sums you might pay them.
Yes, Hunter, you're right, in terms of active players, this game sucks. But if we, who've bought this game, don't start advertising it, noone will. If ppl don't start inquiring about this one at their local retailers, none of them will order it. TM's publisher does as bad a job as possible and we seem to be the last straw for this product. Sadly(?), I don't have the time to play more, but even if I had the time, I would possibly play UT or R*ne, maybe some Str*keF*rce for a change, because there's noone to play against and for one other reason still:

The TM netcode has apparently been thoroughly messed with - the test versions were brilliant in terms of lag-compensation and the like, but with each new release, that has become ever worse. Now, I cannot even play for more than 5 minutes, partly because TM crashes my ISDN modem, partly because it's not really easy to keep aiming at positions where 'the enemy tank could sensibly be in about half a second' because that's roughly the amount of lag I experience. Press fire, wait for the projectile to launch, be amazed how far away from your tank that happens, be astonished that you've even guessed the enemy's direction right, be cheerful when you get a text message that you actually hit him, and then very, very angry that you can reboot for the nth time, because that's what TM requires of my computer.
If other people experience the same, I can understand why no one plays.
Reaction from LDA? none. Yes, Jim, Tom, I'm talking about you. I've been in this community for way over a year now and found that it somehow looks like you're slowly turning your backs on TM. Yes, you're patching TM each week, np. Yes, you've supplied us with CTF, alright. Yes, you've sent two copies of TM to me free of charge as a bonus for having beta-tested TM and as a replacement for a broken CD. But you don't really communicate with us anymore. If there's to be a patch, so be it. But if the patch is not quite exactly top of the crop, don't just take our feedback and produce another patch, let's discuss those things and discuss them thoroughly, at least if you want ppl to stick with you. The number of ppl on this board is small enough to keep patch betas public, so, for heaven's sake, mark them as 'possible as full of bugs as Wind*ws**' or as beta versions.
I don't mean to say anything against bugs, but, heck, I don't even mean to say anything against you, LDA, but you've become, over time, (I don't know whether the word exists, but it's logical, so I'll just use it) irresponsive. That's what bothers me. If we don't get any feedback from you, this community is bound to die. As TM is now, in it's present state, noone will buy it. Be quick about a patch and be quick about some advertising in the mags, or the technology will be outdated before anyone really notices this game. Respond to the questions asked on your BBS, or you're bound to loose even the core members of your community. A patch in itself is not enough feedback.
Err... yes. that's about it. No offense meant, not even a real flame intended (except against AAA). Maybe you'll listen. Maybe not. My voice will, in any case, not be loud enough to make any difference.
Hunter, again in response to your inquiry: Yes, I do think you may have somehow wasted your money. If TM continues the way it looks like it will take, it's going down the drain. Then there won'tbe any people playing and there won't be any servers to play on and after the 10th time you've beaten the ladder, you'll throw TM away, deep in to the darkest corner of your closet and say, 'darn. I'd spent a lot of money on that thing.'


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Founder of BWL
Admin for www.tmvr.de

[This message has been edited by Dreamer (BWL/MG) (edited January 19, 2001).]

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LDATom
Administrator
posted January 19, 2001 01:09 PM            
Dreamer - Sorry you don't think we respond or listen to you guys. Here are some replies to your comments.

1. The latest patches have had a few problems. In retrospect we rushed a bit too much to get CTF out the door. We've been trying to clear up the mistakes.
2. Missing servers are a result of the problems with the patch, but with the 1.5.9 version (which has been tested farily well and should be released very soon) I hope that we'll resolve that issue.
3. Crashing your cable modem - As I've said before, I don't really see how its possible that TM could be doing anything "wrong" that would cause this. All we do is send normal packets like everybody else. If there's something about the way we send packets (too frequently, or something odd like that) that is causing buggy drivers or hardware for your cable modem to crash, I don't really think there's anything we can do about it.
4. Crashes in the game itself - These will be difficult to track down as we don't have the problems here, but to be honest I suspect buggy drivers for a lot of them. I understand this looks like a poor excuse, but when most people run the game just fine, and a few people are crashing, I have to look to problems with their system as the likely cause. We'll try to help people correct these problems and get things running smoothly, but in general the response will be: First try updated drivers. Second, try a clean install of the OS with updated drivers (everything from motherboard and network card, to video and sound).
5. Poor network speed. Nothing has changed in the low-level network code and the game still uses the same amount of CPU and RAM to run a server. Some high level changes to support information on flags has been added, but that shouldn't have any effect on overall speed. As I've mentinoed to you before, if you're having problems connecting to servers and getting a good game, I can only suggest that your connection to those servers is poor. I know that for some servers I get horrible connections, but for others everything is fine. I know that a lot of the player servers have been running of DSL or Cable connections and they can only support a small number of clients. Once anywhere from 3 to 5 people connect, everyone's connect gets really lousy since they don't have enough upstream bandwidth to fill the need. Check out the netgame uk servers (especially after this weekend). They're on a nice large pipe that should be able to handle a lot of users with ease.

Tom

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Dreamer (BWL/MG)
Member
posted January 19, 2001 01:51 PM            
Tom, thx. for your quick reply; I'm really sorry in case I offended you. The problems I have - crashing my ISDN modem and my computer subsequently - are with TM alone, so they _must_ have sth. to do with TM. Maybe the drivers are faulty, but then again, shouldn't different software cause similar problems?
Plus, I'm not the only one complaining about major lag problems. Not at all the only one. And I remember a time when I went to my friends and told them, 'now look, there's this game, and see how great that one plays at ping over 200!' Now I have to pray for servers with initial pings under 150ms in order to be able to play at all (every aiming above 150ms is just guesswork).
This _has_ become worse and it's not because of bandwidth problems - Domino _should_ be able to host two players with netrates @3k - both on ISDN, both from Germany.

The communication problem is there, and your post proves it. Had I known that you are actually testing - and thoroughly so - the next patch, about the half of my rant could have been left out and would not have been missed (not that the other half would have been, for that matter...) at all.

I do think that you're doing great work, but we've been spoiled into thinking that you're going to regularly tell us what piece of great work you're doing right then.

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coax
Administrator
posted January 19, 2001 03:02 PM            
I know what the problem is and how it can be fixed.

If you look at the Tread Marks homepage you will tell you the recent TM news, and if you look back at the very begginning. Back to the first news item Dec. 15 1999 you will see that, I assume Seumas, wrote some sort of news every couple of days. He kept us in the loop of whats happening theres some new on Dec. 16, 17, 18, 22nd and so on. Then he dies , its announced March 30th, a couple of updates about tributes and thankyous. And from May 21st till August 31st there isn't a peep. Thats 3 months of nothingness no current info no updates no nothing. Which is understandable because there is a mourning time associated with any death.

But again it happens theres no news again from August 31st till Nov 8th. Again we are left in the dark on whats happening for another 3months. Which is not cool. Even though you may of been developing code for Tread Marks in that time, we just think we've been abandoned and forced to fend on our own. And still now we don't get some more information on average about 3 weeks.

The news should be updated more regularly, like it was a year ago. You should treat the news like a journal the way it use to be handled. Then we get a better sence on what TMs future is. I really think thats the best way to fix the problem of lack of communication a lot of us feel. Sure you guys are responsive to any concerns and bugs but I dunno could use that extra human touch with regular news updates

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Hunter
Member
posted January 19, 2001 03:07 PM            
Thanks for all your feed back guys. I hate to hear that I may have wasted my money. BWT I have never played the ladder mode on either the game or demo. I will try it next time, I always just play Battle mode, as far as lag goes thats the one thing that has impressed me about the game. I occasionally experience bad lag but most times its minimal and I can just shoot straight at my victims. I have a VDSL connection from Qwest they guarantee 256k up/down loads. I get about 239kb. When I am online with TM I almost always get 300ms, but I see lots of guys with 200 and some with 400 and 500. Sometimes the games get really laggy and I just disconnect and reconnect and then things get better. I will say if the lag gets bad the way you describe I will stop playing online. Thats what happened with another great tank game Recoil. The lag online is not playable and for a site like Westwood they should be ashamed of themselves. BTW again, I have been playing this game for at least a year I just recently started online because I had a slow connection before. Also to Coax, I played in a game with Super Unknown and I won with ease, he did mention that his ping was 1000, mine was 300ms. I said "these bots are too easy, he said not at his ping rate. I wonder what type of connection he has and why is mine so good right now? I have tried Recoil with my fast connection and I am so lagged out that I cant even play. Well, I hope this game doesnt die, because I have been talking it up with my friends and family. I will comment about the marketing one word (nonexistent) I have seen worse games get better lip service. A comment on the manual that comes with the game, Very limited and looks cheap. Question, why was the game so high, I guess I should have waited a couple weeks for it to hit the $9.00 discount shelf. If it even stays available long enough. Maybe I will try to run a dedicated server on my computer, can I also play? Closing, I still love the game and I have been losing sleep over it. I plan to stick with it for a while so expect to see me on the battle field, oh and the CTF is really fun.

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Dreamer (BWL/MG)
Member
posted January 19, 2001 03:29 PM            
Let's hope that 1.5.9 is as good as Tom promises. Let's hope LDA can burn 1.5.9 onto lots of CDs and put them into lots of colorful boxes. Let's hope there's going to be some advertising. TM's a cool game. I hope it will stay that way.
One problem I see is that 1.5.5 and 1.5.7/8/9 are not compatible over the 'net.
Thus, people who buy the game will probably see quite few servers they can play on.
Kinda bad, isn't it?
Maybe there should be a patch that makes the 1.5.9 servers display a message on all 1.5.5 clients that they are outdated and to please download a patch. Version conflicts won't do any good. Maybe LDA could even implement an automatic download feature for patches - if you can start IE5 to check you website when the master server is down, you can automatically have the patch download page pop up, too - maybe a mofified one with a fitting message.

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Hunter
Member
posted January 19, 2001 04:22 PM            
The automatic patch download is implemented at Westwood. When you go online it automatically will tell you that you need the patch and it asks if you want to proceed with the download. It works great. Also I think you are right about not seeing servers, because I only saw like 5 of them, and I never saw Domino server. I dont know what version I have, but I downloaded the latest patch. I hope they get all the issues resolved then maybe we can all get on the same games, its really a bad thing when the demo plays better than the retail version of a game. I bet you dont see that with crimsom skies. Which BTW has like no lag problem. lol

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LDATom
Administrator
posted January 19, 2001 06:02 PM            
Dreamer - It has been suggested many times that we make some changes to the game so people who buy 1.5.5 in the stores get messages and things telling them to download a new patch. Well, the server can't trigger any messages in the client that don't already exist. This means that the client must be modified for these things to happen. In order to modify the client, the users need to download a patch ... so we're back at square one ... hehe.

For future titles we're going to make sure that there's a better "Download a patch from ..." type of message, but for now we have to live with what exists in the boxes at the stores.

In the mean time, I think it would be great if in the description text for the server it would mention that the server requires a 1.5.9 client or higher. In fact, I'm going to change the default dedicated.cfg to include that (hopefully server admins will keep it in there).

Tom

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LDA
Administrator
posted January 19, 2001 06:18 PM            
Dreamer:

It is nice to know that when you're worried, that you're worried "for" LDA rather than "against" LDA.

I can no longer stay completely quiet on the topic of AAAGame/On-line.PLC but until the legalities are thrashed through ( and the thrashing has begun ), consider the following comments to be conservative and reserved.

First, I'd like to say that I have full confidence in Tom's abilities and as professionals, we at LDA prefer that all of you continue to be candid with us. I'm sorry that we've seemed a bit distanced at times, but much has been the result of publisher negotiations, publisher wishes and publisher promises. That will change....


Now for a few of those "reserved" comments I mentioned.

Servers: AAAGame has been of no help with server issues, offering feedback on details such as "the amount of splash when tanks enter water" while apparently not having the technical ability to run a dedicated server, (test or otherwise) of their own.

German Release: Sadly, I have no idea when the German release of Tread Marks will happen. When I ask AAAGame I either get the date of the upcoming Friday...January 5th, January 12th, January 19th...or the confidence inspiring answer "I don't know" direct from the marketing manager. I hope that this isn't like that story, "The Emperor's New Clothes".

Marketing: I understand and share your frustration with what has been going on. Look at all the things that our publisher AAAGame has been doing to bring Tread Marks to market <cough> (If anyone actually spots a Tread Marks magazine add, please let me know.)

OK...now imagine that the "true" situation with AAAGame is much worse.

I'll fill you in on the details when I can.

Jim

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LDATom
Administrator
posted January 19, 2001 06:22 PM            
Dreamer - Is your cable modem a card in your computer, or an external box? If it's an external box (like they are here in the states) then there really isn't anything TM could be doing to mess it up. We make UDP packets and send them to whatever network interface you have active (dial-up adapter, or ethernet card). There isn't a great deal of configuration to a UDP packet (just a header with source/destination, time to live, and the datagram). If your cable modem is an external box, all its doing is taking these UDP packets, wrapping them up into the transport protocol for the cable, and sending them out. If the modem is a card in your machine then it becomes a bit more complicated with drivers and such, but I haven't seen one of these in the states.

If there was a generic problem with the packets we're sending out then everyone would be having problems, not just your cable modem. I know this doesn't help you, but we can keep talking about it and maybe figure out what's going on. If you want to, drop me a line at tom@longbowdigitalarts.com with your response and we can go from there.

As for your server problems, running with your netrate at 3k/sec on a server with 5 or 6 AIs and a couple players is going to produce jumpy results no matter what your ping is. The server will run into situations where it needsto send you more information about the tank and weapon positions than will fit in 3k, so it ends up dropping some of the updates and you end up with stuff "lagging". If you have enough bandwidth for it, try running with 5k/sec or higher.

I haven't spent any time in the low level network code yet, so I'm not sure about how much bandwidth each tank takes up on average, but from my experience I found setting my net rate to 2 or 3k to produce lag effects on games with around 5-7 tanks, but bumping it up to 5k kept things pretty smooth for much higher numbers of tanks.

I frequently play on servers with pings around 200 to 250ms and as long as there isn't a lot of packet loss (from net rates being too low, or saturated server bandwidth) I'm able to have a good game. Over 300ms and things start getting a bit too laggy for me.

Tom

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Dreamer (BWL/MG)
Member
posted January 19, 2001 09:26 PM            
Ooops. (Comment on the quantity of reaction on my first post)
Tom: Well, I'll try and tweak around with different driver versions for my ISDN modem some more (yes, it's an external one), but that did not produce better results until now and I doubt it will at all. My only guess is that somehow the whole problem is related to USB problems. I don't know how far you are into USB architecture, but could you imagine that there are problems with - well, that maybe an outdated concept - sampling rates? Could it be that the USB crashes on occasions such as losing a UDP packet between the modem and the head? I dunno anything about that kind of hardware, really, but I do know that the reason might lie there: I've bought a USB mouse shortly before 1.5.5 arrived, in fact I bought it when I'd given up on having 1.5.5 full before xmas. If Synack happens to have a USB keyboard, that might be just it: Maybe something in TM's code might be _very_ dangerous for USB. But that's just a thought.
Jim: AAA - Acronym for Absolutely pAthetic and that's still too good for them, I believe. If I could afford it, I would run a server myself, but at $0.75 per hour, I cannot really afford that. Too bad if they can't afford that, either - <$300 per month.

Keep up the good work, Wendy, Jim, Tom, Phillipe (did I get the spelling right?) and whoever else is around - we're relying on you.

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GoldAnt_Number1
Member
posted January 19, 2001 11:36 PM            
If peoples could just play the demo they'd all want the full version. Trouble is theres so many faulse worthless games out there. So your scared to buy it. I was hehe finally got up my courage n asked my dad to take me to the store so i could buy treadmarks with my lawn mowing money I've already given the demo to 3 peoples with icq. The older one so we could play multiplayer. All of them loved it and are saving up for it. Peoples just need to know.

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P) Can't forget those pirate smileys at the bottem now can we P)

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SuperUnknown
Administrator
posted January 19, 2001 11:56 PM            
I run on a 56k and yes I was seeing 1000+ pings on the UK servers(the other servers' pings were normal so it wasn't my connection).I have a 2 way Satellite modem,but it gets really bad pings(700-900)So I'm am forced to use my old trusty dial-up when I play online.I usually get pings in the 300-500 range when I use my 56k ,which is not bad,and I set my net rate to 3k/sec.By the way,on a positive note,the game runs great on my machine.I've never had a problem with the game crashing or the server booting me off.Although I still have that OpenGL problem when I have two different versions installed.
I agree with Hunter that there is a lack of active players.I understand that people are busy or live in other parts of the world,so its not a flame in any way.But the fact still remains that humans are hard to find.I usually end up playing on the demo server because there is usually people on there everynight.I think that this community is great and better than any game I've played,but more players are needed.I don't know what kind of budget LDA works on,so I can't really tell them to advertise more.I try to do my part and tell people to buy the game,especially on the demo server where some have been playing since the demo was first interduced.
All in all,the game is great and the programers did an excellent job.I am taking 18 credit hours in college and working 30 hours a week,yet I still make time to play this game almost everynight

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Hunter
Member
posted January 20, 2001 02:29 AM            
I never have any problems with this game it never crashes my machine. I think that the programers did a great job. But they made a very bad business descision. They made the demo too good. Its sad but true, if they wanted to sell the game they should have made the demo more like that piece of crap that was put out the second time by AAA. Unless they start a good advertising campaign and pretend that this is a brand new game they wont ever make it big. Notice how most micro$oft demos are done, thats why they are micro$oft Oh well I still love the game. I work 40hrs a week, and I have 2 kids + college at ASU, but I still manage to waste time playing this game.

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Rex R
Member
posted January 20, 2001 02:44 AM            
Re; marketing
as some of you may know I also dabble with re-volt. well let me tell you a story
some time back a software studio in london started putting together a racing game and attracted the attenion of a BIG name in comp games, so much so they bought the little studio. then they said hey that looks great can you do up console versions.well I have learned that the pc version is by far the best of the lot. as for product support well the big company put up a web page and stopped updating it before the game got to market their tech support was miminmal. got more help from the programmers on their own time who happend by the unofficial forum. in general the big co. dropped the ball, the programmers pretty much decided they could do better and left and the big co. well they dropped out of pc games and are now doeing console games exclusively. I find LDA's support and involvement refreshing. and on an other note remember id didn't get it right the 1st time with either quake or quake2 Quake is up to 1.08 and q2 3.20(they started with ver3.05? & worked there way up)
just my nickel

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synack
Member
posted January 20, 2001 06:44 AM         
Dreamer, my keyboard is not USB, but my Joystick is.

Obviously, I'm not using my Joystick for chat, but USB is still a part of my overall config.

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=DNX= Matrix
Member
posted January 20, 2001 10:56 AM            
Seems to me jim / tom, that the people playing the game are best qualified to retail & advertise it.

Pop some of us on the payroll, open the legalities to allow use of trademarks.

Provide enough funding for at least 1 dedicated server in each continent (hardly a dent in any company pocket) and your user base (US) will do the rest - if you truely want this game to succeed.

You have to sack AAAGame as your marketeers. From what i read everyone who ploays Tm knows the quality and is telling their mates, imagine the impact they could have with the muscle to tell thousands - plus which, personal opinion is always valued more than business self hype.

I will certainly do and am doing everything i can to help, i can offer many things from here the uk, but the ball has to start at your end.

Good luck
TM 4 Ever

-=[/2]=-

IP:

Manray
Member
posted January 20, 2001 12:12 PM         
I would not have known about this game if it weren't for the online review in PCWorld magazine. I had been looking for a good first person shooter tank game for years (I hate those "birdseye view" strategic tank games. What a waste of time!). I downloaded the demo and was blown away after watching the auto run demo for half an hour! The next day I went searching for the full version and found a single copy at Electronic Boutique. When buying a new game I always visit the games' website for any updates and patches, which is what I did after buying this one. I think anyone buying any game should consider this as standard operating proceedure.
Have I regreted my purchase? No! I have enjoyed it thoroughly and think the purchase price well worth it! (For those complaining about the cost, consider this; when Descent3 came out I think my final purchase price was $52 and I wouldn't trade that game for the world!)
Now, marketing. In a word: nonexistant. This is where AAA needs to take a very sharp lesson from their competitors at Parralax. When Descent3 was released it was touted to the heavens by the Descent community, received rave reviews by gaming magazines and won several awards. In my opinion it made Quake3 look like a poorly planned low budget movie. Unfortunately there were hardly any advertisements, and no hard sell marketing push was arranged with CompUSA, Electronic Boutique or Babbages. The result: they lost money on the whole project, what few patches that have been released were done so by some of the loyal programmers on their own time, and the company is not planning to release a Descent4! Is this starting to sound a little familiar?
I have been impressed with the sense of community this game has. As for players on line, I have been trying to get on the servers in the evenings (east coast US) and on the weekends. I haven't noticed a lot of human activity yet, but I have enjoyed playing the humans that I've run across. If I jump into a game and it's filled with bots, I play against them for a while and usually another human will show up. Hang in there guys, activity will pick up!
Ping: I'm running 56k now (cable modem should be up and running by mid February) and I'm getting server pings here that range between 250 and 500ms. I have no problems playing with a ping around 400ms. I've played on the UK servers and only one has had a ping so high that I don't even bother with it.
I look forward to playing each one of you, and I don't care if I win or lose, I just love playing this game! I have been raving about this game to anyone that will listen. (TM developers take note. It takes quite a lot to drag me away from playing Descent3! I now divide my playing time between the two! You've done a wonderful job!) See you in the desert, and long live TM!!

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LDATom
Administrator
posted January 20, 2001 12:21 PM            
Dreamer - So your cable modem is a USB device? Interesting. I have a collection of USB joysticks that I've used for testing in the past, but I'm not currently running with any USB devices. I'll hook them up and see if anything weird starts to happen. TM itself doesn't know anything about USB, and I don't think there's anything I could change in TM to affect the way USB operates on a machine (no application knows about USB any more than it knows about IDE, PCI, or any other bus .. that is all handled by the system and the drivers).

SuperUnknown - I'm not saying that your connection is bad, only that the connection between you and the server is bad (there are many pieces in between, and any one of them could be crowded).

=DNX= Matrix - Once Homelan gets back online we'll have two sets of servers, one in the UK and one in the US. That covers both continents that TM is being distributed in. If you are having problems with the UK servers, talk to Malice or Chaser from Net Games UK on IRC and see what's up. They're really great guys.

Tom

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Dreamer (BWL/MG)
Member
posted January 20, 2001 12:38 PM            
Tom:

Solution for my problem?

Now, this looks like it might just be the bit I was looking for.
Synchronisation errors! Hoowoo! Well, I'll see whether that's it. Maybe the page is of interest for you, Tom. Still, the question remains why TM does that and not a single other program. Not IE, not UT, Q3's fine, several different ftp clients work w/o probs... Only TM simply crashes my deck.

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Dreamer (BWL/MG)
Member
posted January 20, 2001 02:05 PM            
Nope, did not solve anything at all.

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Unforseen Chaos
Member
posted January 20, 2001 11:28 PM            
DAmn u got ripped off! i only payed $10.00 for it!

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.-==KABOOM==-.


IP:

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